Steve McLaren | Not up to the job.

[radikal_dj]

As a Welshman and football enthusiast, when discussing England's performance, I am always obliged to give a neutral point-of-view. I also like to wait a few days until after a match like the recent friendly against Spain to add my two penneth.
Admittedly, this post has been inspired by reading the most recent Steve McLaren article on the bbc site.
Crazily, it appears that there is some unwritten rule that claims the public & media etc should only judge Steve McLaren at the end of his term and not less than one year into the job - utter nonsense - This man has been involved in top football for years and not to mention being right-hand man to Sven during his reign - he has the experience, the players & he has the swagger of a national coach but seriously, he is not up to the job - proven by the way the national team play and now backed-up by curiously laim comments from Steve Gibson (Middlesborough Chairman) suggesting that England's top clubs are to blame.

"The Liverpools and the Arsenals - what are they contributing at national level?" said Gibson on BBC Five Live.

Without sounding too harsh - England haven't won an International Level Competition for 41 years! - Has anyone ever mentioned in volume that England haven't won anything in this time becuase they simply aren't good enough to win - If blame is to be handed out, it could be listed like a divorce claim - Failure runs deep in the veins of the entire England Football Squad - When success finally comes to them, it will be as a result of many, many changes, starting with attitude & realism.
Referring to the quote above, I'm sure many of you will agree with what has been said here - it's true - What do Arsenal & Liverpool contribute to England at international level? I'm not going to directly answer this as I think it's a poor attempt at shifting the blame away from where it lies but I would like to add some points for discussion.
The backbone of these clubs is british but that's about as far as it goes - though it is worth mentioning that almost every English player at Liverpool & Arsenal [First Squad] is/has been/will be involved with England. Am I correct to say this or should I drop names like Jamie Carragher, Steven Gerrard, Jermaine Pennant, Peter Crouch & Theo Walcott who are current players? Ok 1 player from the Arsenal setup is far from a massive contribution & Theo's own contribution to club & country is small fries but he's young and that's another thread entirely - Arsene Wenger is French, Rafael Benitez is Spanish - Do you think that they feel obliged to play/field/promote English players when they have virtually unlimited funds and the pick of almost any player they want? And besides - Are we truly expected to believe that because 2 teams out of 20 in the Premiership are mostly foreign, we blame them for a 41 years of failure and McLaren not chalking in a win in the last 4 games and prior to that only beating Macedonia by 1? oh...it's Arsenal & Liverpool's fault, damn them!
I find it unbelievable that with the talent that you have in England - you cannot perform to the potential that you should - getting beaten 1-0 by Spain & drawing 1-1 with Holland are accurate results, these countries have FAR better players than you do - But it is the manner in which England get beaten - they look - very poor & I cannot for the life of me remember when I watched an England match of calibre and thought - They played very well.
It's time to break tradition and play in-form players, not household names, the talent is here, staring everyone in the face, it needs harnessing and I'd love, in my lifetime, too see changes to traditions and witness an England team playing like they should, with 11 in-form players, playing with passion and coached by a man who has a rocket-up-his-ass [Stuart Pearce] and maybe even watch them win a major competition in the next 4 years?

Dream? Probably. Possibility? Definitely.

 

[Gilly]

Pearce isn't ready for England and hasn't proved himself yet. He'd tell you that as quick as anyone.

As for Holland and Spain having much better players I take issue with that. Fully fit first 11's would be very close. When you think we were missing Owen, Rooney, Hargreaves, Terry, Lennon, Joe Cole, Ashley Cole, Bridge, we didn't play with Robinson so that Foster could pick up experience... any team in the world is going to miss players of that level.

You could judge a club level manager over the amount of time that McClaren has had, but you cannot judge him yet. Not to the point where you sack and replace him already.

 

[Rich_L]

To be honest I'm not even really bothered about whether we win stuff, just that we actually start playing enjoyable football - Germany in the World Cup was a perfect example - sure they didn't win but they went out with their heads held high because they played entertaining football with passion.

The friendly was ridiculous, everyone knew before the game started that the formation was unworkable and would lead to a big gap on the left-side - if we could all see it why on Earth couldn't Mclaren?! Yes we were missing a lot of players, but that still doesn't excuse such an abject performance! I enjoyed watching the U21's game far more as at least it looked like those players cared about playing.

 

[Lead_Head]

I personally think the issue for any England manager whether it's McLaren or anyone else lies at club level. Let's look at the clubs that consistently finish in the top 5 of the league:

Chelsea,
Arsenal,
Liverpool,
Manchester United.

Moriniho[sp?] is Portugese (before that you had Claudio Raneiri who was Italian).
Arsene Wenger is French,
Benitez is Spanish.

Where were they brought up, in there own countries of course. Who here pays much attention to the Portugese, French or Spanish leagues and knows the raw talent at youth / reserve level and think they could make a great player out of them? So how do you expect foreign managers to be the same? They are experts of there own national leagues so are more likely to buy players they know rather than players they are unsure about or the media hype up, especially when the managers are under pressure.

Lets look at the squads.

Chelsea - Carvalho, Ferreira, (one more I can't remember) - All Portugese,
Arsene Wenger - Clichy, Henry + a couple of others. Or, they are French / African. E.g. Toure, Abondyor[sp?], Eboue, Daby.
Liverpool - Garcia, Xabi Alonso - Spanish.

They tend to buy players from there home country flooding foreign players in to our game which might improve our game in the short term but the medium to long term English game will suffer - and badly - this shows on the international level.

Another problem is that English players are overpriced. Ashley Young - £9.75m? Darren Bent £18m? If you were a manager would you pay nearly £10m for an unproven youngster or dip in to the foreign market in to a league your more familiar with and pick up an equally talented player for less than half the price?

I firmly believe if we had more English (British) managers in the top tier of the Premiership we'd be a lot more successful at International level.

 

[radikal_dj]

Pearce isn't ready for England and hasn't proved himself yet. He'd tell you that as quick as anyone.

McLaren isn't ready & shouldn't be England manager? has Stuart Pearce ever had a season ticket thrown in his face by an angry fan?

As for Holland and Spain having much better players I take issue with that

Some of these may disagree:

You could judge a club level manager over the amount of time that McClaren has had, but you cannot judge him yet. Not to the point where you sack and replace him already.

You're right, it's not traditional is it? Do you think that Steve McLaren is doing a good job and is he unreplaceable?

 

[Gilly]

McLaren isn't ready & shouldn't be England manager? has Stuart Pearce ever had a season ticket thrown in his face by an angry fan?

McLaren cut his coaching teeth under the most successful Premiership manager ever, and had a fair crack at the whip at Boro. He'd also been involved at England level. Pearce and McClaren cannot be compared in any way. That you'd try to do so shows the folly of this thread

Some of these may disagree:

I don't really care.

You're right, it's not traditional is it? Do you think that Steve McLaren is doing a good job and is he unreplaceable?

Who mentioned tradition?

I think he needs to be given a chance to do a job, and I don't believe unreplaceable is even a word

 

[radikal_dj]

Gilly,

The very fact that McLaren cut his teeth at Man U etc etc voids any claim that he needs time - which is my point of why it is entirely appropriate to judge him now - and that is what I am doing - I judge him and the entire coaching set up right the way up to Barwick - It's all about the money in my opinion.
I believe the English FA/media traditions are to blame for a lot of the failures, surely you know what I mean? Playing household names even when they are seriously out-of-form, submitting to pressure, Phil Neville, talking the talk, living on past success and always claiming to be the best or "we'll do it next time" attitude, I could easily go on...I mean, how many games does it take a manager of any level to realise he has the wrong formation and wrong combination of players? This is the core ethic of team sports!!

Know what I mean?

unreplaceable

 

[Gilly]

Why bold my name? I know who you're addressing. You didn't want unreplaceable you wanted irreplaceable.

Say you put Taggart in as England manager. it won't ever happen but say it did. if he didn't win his first game would you sack him? Its counter-productive. There's a reason the very top clubs don't often sack managers.

I think that in certain situations what you're saying might make sense, but it certainly doesn't in this one.

 

[georges]

To be honest though, what are middlesborough contributing? Woodgate, who will be replaced by terry as soon as he's back, imo. Whether he should or not is an entirely different discussiong. Then there's downing.


Middlesborough are doing well then, to be able to criticise.

 

[Loki]

Snip OP

To be fair England did win Le Tournoi in 2007 so to suggest they haven't won anything is wrong

Joking aside part of the problem is the way the game is run and administered at a higher level than Steve Mclaren. i.e. The FA I would liken England in someways to Chelsea in the respect that everything is geared for the here and now success rather than long term success. Whilst you can argue that countrys like The Netherlands are technically better than England, it really doenst count for anything when you compare qualifications to major championships and results in it. The exception of course was the 1988 European championships in West Germany. In fact I would say England has a slightly better record than them.

A hell of a lot more needs to be invested in grass roots football and increase technical ability from a very earry age. Player for Player we have a pretty good first XI in comparison to the rest of the big teams in world football. Below that their is very little substance. So when Steve Mclaren gets players pulling out of the squad we will always look weaker by comparisson. I think it's too early to judge him. Moreso when you consider that Sven had the one of the best England squads for a number of years and failed to deliver with that. Mclaren should be judged after this qualification campaign imho

 

[[ASSE]Hinchy]

I think the first problem he made for himself was dropping Beckham from the squad when he was easily worthy of being in it. This set a precident, that he was going to drop big name players if they weren't performing. However since that he hasn't done it. He has persisted with trying Lampard and Gerrard together in midfield. If one is better than the other, you play that one. You don't play both.

Look at the French when they had a player like Ginola. He was a great player, everyone knew it but he didn't play regularly for France as they had someone better in his role. The same for a lot of Brazilian players.

McClaren needs to pick his 4-4-2 system which he knows is best and then pick the players that will compliment it best. Then he needs to get Crouch out of the team. Not because Crouch is a bad player, far from it. But to stop everyone one of the back four looking for his head every time they have the ball.

English players are good enough in my eyes but the way they are being used is wrong. Look at how successful Premiership teams are in Europe. We have a physical fast paced league. Why can't we take that onto the international stage? Its just very frustrating.

But no, McClaren should not be sacked as it wouldn't achieve anything. He hasn't had long enough in charge yet and even if sacking him was justifiable, who is going to replace him? Pearce? No thanks. He's Kevin Keegan II if you ask me.

I just pray to God that one day we will see Wenger in charge of England. I just feel that if he was in charge, we would at least see them playing fast paced football, rather than slow paced hoofball.

 

[Hlebio]

What are Liverpool and Arsenal contributing to the England football team? Well, nothing... because last time I checked, both Arsene Wenger and Rafa Benitez manage club teams, not England.

 

[Gilly]

Cole Lampard Hargreaves Lennon

get it done. Would be unreal Gerrard can come in for any one of them. The perfect backup man. He can even play alongside Hargreaves and have Lennon pushing forward. I think England's biggest midfield problem is Gerrard playing the way he does. He's not a big fish in the England team like he is in the Liverpool team and he wants everything his own way but it doesn't happen, which is detrimental to the whole team not just his own effectiveness.

 

[[ASSE]Hinchy]

Gerrard is also guilty of too many long balls. I still think he is a better player than Lampard though and so personally, I would have him ahead of Frank in the selection.

Gerrard can grab the game by the scruff of the neck with his abilities. He has a 'bite' that I don't think Lampard has and he can change a game in an instant.

Its all down to personal preference with them though really, but one thing I think everyone is certain of is that unfortunately, they don't work well together.

 

[Weebull]

Lets look at the squads.

Chelsea - Carvalho, Ferreira, (one more I can't remember) - All Portugese,
Arsene Wenger - Clichy, Henry + a couple of others. Or, they are French / African. E.g. Toure, Abondyor[sp?], Eboue, Daby.
Liverpool - Garcia, Xabi Alonso - Spanish.

Two or three players per team is hardly flooding the market is it? The big teams buy players because of their ability, not their nationality. The reason they mostly end up looking abroad is because they have better networks, more pulling power, and that the English players available to them are either too expensive, or simply not good enough.

Why should the best teams play English players if they're not good enough. I don't want to see an Arsenal team full of the likes of Bentley, Taylor, Stephen Hughes, or the many English academy youngsters we've had through, when all it'll mean is that we suffer for it. It won't make these not-good-enough-for-England-anyway players magically better and it won't help Arsenal in any way, so where's the upside?

They tend to buy players from there home country flooding foreign players in to our game which might improve our game in the short term but the medium to long term English game will suffer - and badly - this shows on the international level.

Why exactly would it help in the short term but stunt us in the long term? What changes between a few months and a few years that makes such a difference?

I don't think the England team has gotten noticeably worse in, say, the last ten years or so. If anything, I'd say we're better, at least in terms of the players we have available. Has the mass importing of foreign talent helped or harmed us? Neither it seems.

And how is making the Premiership a more competitive, better played competition a bad thing? How is forcing English players to improve and learn new skills bad? How is buying Theo Walcott and trying to mould him into the next Thierry Henry bad for English football at all?

I firmly believe if we had more English (British) managers in the top tier of the Premiership we'd be a lot more successful at International level.

Maybe, like the players, the managers should prove themselves, rather than being gifted the top jobs?

Sam Allardyce aside, I don't see any English manager that has a particularly long and sustained level of success. In fact, I think the FA shot themselves in the foot by not looking for another foreign manager while our homegrown stock is still pretty inexperienced at the top level.

 

[Loki]

Cole Lampard Hargreaves Lennon

get it done. Would be unreal Gerrard can come in for any one of them. The perfect backup man. He can even play alongside Hargreaves and have Lennon pushing forward. I think England's biggest midfield problem is Gerrard playing the way he does. He's not a big fish in the England team like he is in the Liverpool team and he wants everything his own way but it doesn't happen, which is detrimental to the whole team not just his own effectiveness.

tbh thats not a bad assesment.

In some respect the England midfield has tried to accomodate Gerrard & Lampard. Maybe the closest fit would be Lampard with A N Other as opposed to Gerrard. Stevie G would be the perfect impact player to come off the bench and hold the midfield together or push it forward. Im not suggesting that Stevue G is a bad player or questioning his status. However should any team be it club or national side accomodate one player based on their status alone to the detrement of the team or system the manager wants to play.

 

[radikal_dj]

COLE | GERRARD | HARGREAVES | LENNON

I'm with Gilly, except i'd opt for Gerrard over lampard.

 

[deSade]

I didn't think McLaren was good enough for the job before he got it, and he has done absolutely nothing to change my opinion.

I think it sums things up when the best compliment that John Motson came up with about McLaren was that he didn't make as many substitutions as Eriksson (in a friendly).

COLE | GERRARD | HARGREAVES | LENNON

I'm with Gilly, except i'd opt for Gerrard over lampard.

Agreed - I think it's time Lampard is made to fight for his place in the team.

 

[Gilly]

I think it sums things up when the best compliment that John Motson came up with about McLaren was that he didn't make as many substitutions as Eriksson (in a friendly).

And thats possibly because he can't. Limited to 6 subs these days.

Agreed - I think it's time Lampard is made to fight for his place in the team.

Why? He's well worth it.

 

[deSade]

And thats possibly because he can't. Limited to 6 subs these days.

True - LOL

Why? He's well worth it.

I'm afraid I'm one of those annoying people that don't believe Lampard's ever shown particularly good form for England - therefore he should be made to fight if he wants to play for his country.