Streacom Nano160 + AMD RX460

aatu

aatu

aatu

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Disclaimer: Sorry if this is the wrong section. I don't know which one I should take, as this involves GPU, SFF PSU and a small case. At its core, the matter mostly revolves around problems more common with SFF, and thus I think people in this subforum would be most informed in this matter.

Anyway:
I'd like to ask for confirmations and opinions on combining a picoPSU-like DC-DC PSU (Streacom Nano160 (ST-NANO160)) and a fairly low power PCI-E GPU (Gigabyte RX 460 2GB).

I'm currently using this setup:
MB: ASRock FM2A88x-ITX+
CPU: AMD A10-7800 (65W)
CPU cooler: Thermalright AXP-200 Muscle (with Noctua NF-F12 PWM)
RAM: G.Skill Ares 2x4GB DDR3-2133 CL9-11-10-28
SSD: Samsung 850 Evo 250GB SSD 2.5"
Case: Raidmax Atomic (mini-ITX case)
PSU: Streacom Nano160 (160W)

This setup draws about 70-80 watts under load, occasionally/rarely 80-90W.
(When the APU is set for 45W TDP, the total system draw is 50-55W, with 60W as a rare max.)

Background for this dilemma:
I'm thinking of purchasing a Freesync monitor, and therefore need a new GPU. According to pcworld.com, the Gigabyte RX460 should be one of the most power efficient RX460's available, with 55W TDP, and being one of the few 460's that doesn't actually require the 6-pin power connector.

Unfortunately, I can't find any power draw benchmark readings for the Gigabyte. At least the Asus Strix 460 draws about 90-100W under gaming load, which is quite a lot, when I'm dealing with a 160W PSU.

So, positive aspects/notions:
1) Once the dedicated GPU kicks in, the APU's integrated GPU should be disabled, which should drive down the power draw, right?
2) The APU's 45W mode gives a little more breathing room, if necessary.
3) "Radeon WattMan" should enable the user to set temperature and power limits for the GPU, as well as clock speeds and voltages.
4) I have heard that people have managed to get GTX750ti working with NANO150, so this gives hope that RX460 should also be doable...?
5) The GPU doesn't require any 6-pin power connector, which should theoretically mean a max 75W power draw (and thus even lower TDP).

Negative aspects/notions:
1) Gigabyte itself recommends a 350W PSU for the overall system.
2) Streacom lists their PSU having power characteristics as "12V@8A, 5V@6A, 3.3V@2A, 5VSB@1A, [email protected]". That gives only 96W for the 12V rail... which is apparently what both CPU and GPU would primarily use.

So, would a 160W DC-DC PSU and an RX460 be even remotely doable, or just a disaster waiting to happen?
 
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GPU vs. APU:
I bought the current system in January 2015 (+ the Streacom PSU about six months ago), and I'm now upgrading to a discrete GPU. The need for the discrete GPU comes from the planned monitor (Acer XZ321Q), which will need DisplayPort for the FreeSync capability, but the current motherboard doesn't have that (and thus the APU can't deliver the signal). If the APU could deliver the FreeSync signal, I wouldn't be upgrading.

And 45W TDP is apparently the lowest I can get for FM2/FM2+, so there's probably no major benefit from purchasing another CPU/APU.

TDP vs. power:
Yes, I know. The GPU's "55W TDP" is from pcworld.com, which has probably gotten the figure from Gigabyte. Whereas the quoted "75W" is the PCIe slot's standard max power draw (not TDP), if I've understood correctly. I used the word "theoretically", as there have been some GPU's that have drawn more than that.

But indeed, the power draw should be the main focus. Unfortunately, the manufacturers don't state these values, they usually only state TDP.
 
Well, I'm currently using a 42" HDTV, which is quite troublesome, as it has a 35ms input lag and color banding, so a dedicated monitor is something I've been keeping an eye on.

The XZ321Q would be
a) big (although 42" would be even more preferable)
b) VA panel (well, as long as it's not TN...)
c) 144Hz FreeSync (to smooth out the framerates)
d) 1920x1080 (more than adequate for my eyesight, and requires less oomph for gaming)
e) actually a monitor, so hoping <20ms input lag
f) fairly cheap (£400/470€)

The industry is going forward to 4k, and 1920x1080 resolutions are becoming quite rare, especially in the larger monitors. TVs will probably be quite bountiful in FullHD for quite some time, but I don't see FreeSync going that direction anytime soon, if at all. So I'm fearing that this will be the last chance to get a proper set, without any major compromises. When the time for next monitor upgrade arrives, they've hopefully perfected the scaling for 4k, so I can use it without squinting. And hopefully for a more reasonable price, as well.

As for the power draw:
Hmm, that's still quite close, so there's a small chance I might be able to clock the GPU and CPU lower, to squeeze them in within the tolerance limits. But yes, seems a little iffy, so I think I'll have to hold on at least until I see a good deal on the Gigabyte. Or a potential RX450/455 release. The upcoming Zen APUs would be another option, but that would require getting rid of all the main components on my current setup (MB, CPU, RAM), and either pay the probably ludicrous early adopter price, or wait for the prices to settle down.

Thanks for the feedback!

Ps. I do have a regular 600W PSU as a fall-back option, in case the 460 is too much for the nanoPSU. But I'd certainly prefer to keep the smaller and completely silent nanoPSU, nevertheless.
 
APU + RX460 vs 144Hz performance:
Indeed, on newer FPS titles the benefit will be limited. But that's the compromise I made when I decided to go for a silent rig. I'm always few years behind in games (at least in more demanding titles). But older titles should be fine.

In addition to this, the monitor will hopefully last two or three system upgrades, so I'd rather have it done well from the beginning.

Raidmax:
Yeah, I've been meaning to make a smaller custom-built case with a freely-breathing mesh walls for better cooling, but I got side-tracked with work, so that project has been on a hiatus for a while. And now, depending on whether the 460 is doable or not, I might need to alter the dimensions, etc.

SFF PSU + more grunt:
That's not an option. I value silence over size, so I'd rather go with a bigger unit that has more efficient cooling, and thus quieter. The extra noise is also the main reason why I haven't gone for a more powerful GPU and CPU.

To give some reference on my current setup:
It's so silent, that I can't even tell whether it's on or off. For example, when I turn the computer off, I can't determine the moment it stops spinning the fans. The power LED is the only indicator for that.
(Well, there's only one fan, the Noctua NF-F12 PWM, which is practically always 600-800 RPM, I think.)
 
Well, this matter is on a hiatus as of now. Yesterday, I became impatient and requested a quote for a delivery for the XZ321Q, from a UK company to Finland. And the company replied that it would be £70/85€. Which is simply way too much. One german etailer could deliver it for 30€, but they also have +25€ more expensive base price. Still, 30€ cheaper in total. I also sent an inquiry to a Finnish etailer, asking whether they have any intentions on stocking that particular monitor. Well, apparently they've been trying to arrange them to get stocked, but it's still a work in progress. They said it would probably/possibly reach stock during the fall. Acer doesn't have public contact emails, so can't ask them directly, either.

So for the time being, I'm giving the Finnish companies a month or two to get their stock together. If they can't deliver it in a fairly reasonable price, then I'll purchase it from wherever I can get it most cheaply.

Before that time comes, there might be new product/information releases for GPUs and APUs. The rumour mill is suggesting that some of the Zen APUs would be equipped with RX460-level integrated GPU, which would be quite a straight-forward solution, assuming the motherboards support the FreeSync. If they confirm this before I purchase the monitor, then I think I'll opt to waiting for the Zen.

If they don't confirm this, then I'll probably take my chances with the Gigabyte RX 460.
 
1) "The system could have cost much more to have put together the first time."

... Hmm, I'm not sure what you're suggesting with this. Are you saying I should have purchased higher performance components right from the beginning?
Like said, I value silence above all else, and the system was built with this as the main focus. Titan and i7-4770K were quite simply not an option. ;)

Also, like said earlier: Old games. And if need be, lower detail settings.

2) Samsung UE32K5600 and HG32EC770SKXXC
The first one was released only a couple of months ago, so no reviews yet, and thus the input lag is a complete mystery for the time being. Whereas the latter is apparently directed for hotels, etc...? Those things aren't usually good for computer usage. (Furthermore, not that interested in buying a used one.)

In general, Samsung FHD TVs usually have around 40ms input lag. It is 4k where they shine, many of them around ~20ms. Which is still fairly high if compared to computer monitors. Especially when considering that the input lag is the main reason I'm purchasing a new monitor, in the first place.

In other words, I would probably end up with a WORSE input lag than what I currently have. In addition to losing the 3D feature and 10" diagonal size. Without any gains. So I might actually end up paying more money to get a downgrade... :eek:

3) SFX PSU cooling
If the PSU isn't cooling itself, then it's producing heat. If it's producing heat INSIDE the case, then it will heat up rest of the components, as well. Thus more noise. Like said, I also have a 600W PSU (Fractal Design Newton R3 600W). So no need to purchase a third PSU. And it is indeed one of those semi-passive units. And it even has a 135mm fan, 80+ Platinum rating and semi-modular cables. All things considered, it should perform better than any SFX PSU, in every possible category, apart from size. Which isn't even a problem, as the Raidmax Atomic can fit it. Nevertheless, the noise was still too noticeable, and therefore I purchased the nanoPSU.

Ps. I think (and/or hope) the semi-passiveness is linked to the temperature, not load-%. At least with the Newton R3 it seems to be.
 
@Guardsmon:
Oh, I'm actually a huge supported of the ideology that the monitor should cost at least as much as the rest of the computer. After all, it is the main component you're interacting with (looking at it). Not to mention the longest surviving component, as well. Truth be told, the XZ321Q would actually be the cheapest monitor I've ever purchased.
First and second monitors I/we had were probably around 300€, though. But I didn't have a say in them. Some generic no-name 14" and 15" monitors. As for the actual purchased own monitors:
1) 19" CRT, 700€ ('98-'02 + '11-'13)
2) 22" CRT, 800€ ('02-'11)
3) 42" LCD HDTV, 800€ ('13-...)

And now presumably the XZ321Q, 500€ (hopefully will last at least 5 years)
Other options:
Sorry, not interested in 2nd hand components. Too much risk involved.

PSU and heat:
I don't think the pico/nanoPSU dump that much heat inside the case. The brick is outside, and therefore has ample space to dissipate the heat. But then again, I'm not running it in upper limits. And yes, limited power. That's why I'm searching for a low power dedicated GPU. And like said, some people got the GTX 750ti working with the picoPSU, and that has about 60W TDP, I think. Therefore the 55W TDP Gigabyte should still fit inside the realm of possibility.

PSU temperature and fan noise:
Like said, I did notice it with the Newton. The temperature eventually rises above the threshold, and the fan spins up. Not "noisy", but noticeable, nonetheless.

I'm fairly sure I'll be happy with the XZ321Q. If I can get the RX460 working with the nanoPSU, I'll probably be happy. The GPU fan might require some after-market solution, though. If the RX460 ends up requiring the Newton PSU, I'll probably just have to endure with it until I purchase a Zen APU -based system. Or give the GPU to a friend of mine, and just use the XZ321Q without FreeSync, until I upgrade to a Zen APU.
(Assuming the Zen-compatible ITX motherboards actually support FreeSync natively...)

@pandem0nium:
I think even the Kaveri supports FreeSync. The problem is, none of the FM2+ ITX motherboards have DisplayPort. So far among FM2+, only 4 ATX boards and 1 uATX board have DisplayPort. In any case, with my board there's no way to actually feed the signal forward. Unless AsRock manages to update the firmware to support FreeSync-over-HDMI. Which is probably not even possible. Nor probable.

The XFX indeed sounds interesting, but the power draw would be the first concern, at the moment. If it has 55W TDP or below, then that's a fine alternative for the Gigabyte. Actually, I have the "Arctic Cooling Accelero S1 rev2" after-market GPU cooler, which I purchased for the earlier GPU. The XFX's solution seems fairly identical to it.
 
Just thought I'd make a little update on this.

Good news:
Only few days after the inquiry to the Finnish etailer about the XZ321Q, they notified me via email that they've now made plans to get it on their stock in November. And so far they are the only Finnish r/etailer with any plans towards this monitor. Talk about good customer service. So ... I already pre-ordered one from them. Been waiting for a month already, should be another month to go still.

But I got impatient, and about two weeks ago I ordered the Gigabyte RX 460 4GB. Got it yesterday, and lo and behold, it indeed boots with the 160W Streacom NanoPSU, no problems. But, if I leave the APU to 65W and the GPU on default clocks and voltages, the system draws over 160W under load, which I find too uncomfortable to run for extended periods of time, when the PSU itself is only 160W. So two options: either lower the APU to 45W, or decrease the clocks on the GPU.

To test things out, I used AMD's WattMan on Windows to lower the core clock speeds and voltages, and tested the card with the freely available Street Fighter 4 and Heaven 4.0 benchmarks, in both 65W and 45W APU power modes. Benchmark results inside the spoiler:
===============
APU in 65W mode
===============

Default power states (ST0-ST7):
Clocks (MHz): N/A 479 759 1019 1104 1139 1174 1214
Voltages (mV): N/A 821 825 900 981 1025 1068 1131
SF4: >160W, stopped the benchmark for fear of damaging the system
HV4: >160W, stopped the benchmark for fear of damaging the system

Custom power states (ST0-ST7):
Clocks (MHz): N/A 400 600 850 900 925 950 1000
Voltages (mV): N/A 800 800 825 825 825 825 825
SF4: 172fps -- 13100 -- 1000rpm, 137W, 51C
HV4: 85fps -- 2150 -- 1000rpm, 130W, 58C


===============
APU in 45W mode
===============

Default power states (ST0-ST7):
Clocks (MHz): N/A 479 759 1019 1104 1139 1174 1214
Voltages (mV): N/A 821 825 900 981 1025 1068 1131
SF4: 160fps -- 12450 -- 1150rpm, 145W, 58C
HV4: 91fps -- 2300 -- 1000rpm, 140W, 71C

Custom power states (ST0-ST7):
Clocks (MHz): N/A 400 600 850 900 925 950 1000
Voltages (mV): N/A 800 800 825 825 825 825 825
SF4: 157fps -- 12250 -- 1000rpm, 115W, 50C
HV4: 83fps -- 2100 -- 1000rpm, 110W, 58C
Like the rumours have already suggested, the Polaris line indeed goes downwards quite nicely. The default clocks run quite hot, with high voltages. Then again, it also occurred to me that maybe they're binning the better downclockable units for the early release, so individual customers will review them more favorably? I don't know, but I'm quite impressed with the downclocks on my unit, in any case.

Also, considering that the APU will probably become the bigger bottleneck, I decided to opt for the lower GPU clocks on my own usage. Furthermore, the GPU's fans are quite loud, as well, whereas the APU has a massive cooler, which keeps the operation silent even on 65W.

The performance impact is fairly low with the custom clocks, from what I've gathered. I would like to check the default clocks with 65W APU mode on my 600W PSU for a better comparison point, but when considering all the extra work it would require, I'm not THAT interested in the results. So I'm content with what I have now. It's still a definite upgrade from the APU-only setup.

Bad news:
Things aren't as rosy on the Linux side. Initially I couldn't even boot the ChaletOS, but after replacing boot parameter "quiet splash" into "nomodeset", I got back into Linux. At first, the minimum fan RPM was relatively high (1500 rpm?) and thus the noise was very noticeable. But after installing the AMDGPU-Pro drivers, the fan speed dropped to maybe around 1000 rpm. Definite improvement, but I'd prefer it to hit zero RPM, because in Linux, it usually stays idle for the most part.

I tried "radeon-profile", which should permit fan speed customization, but I haven't yet managed to get the software to detect the GPU at all, let alone the RPMs or temperatures. Then again, even at idle the system draws around 50W on Linux, whereas in Windows it fluctuates between 30-60W on idle, so maybe it just doesn't work as efficiently in Linux? Then again, it also doesn't feel that warm (maybe around 35C?), so I THINK there should be enough breathing room to lower the fan speed.

Just recently I figured out a way to manually set the fan speed via terminal:
sudo bash -c "echo 77 > /sys/class/drm/card1/device/hwmon/hwmon1/pwm1"
(Where 77 is the fan speed, which will be divided with 255, and will thus determine the fan speed percentage. 77/255=30%, which seems to be the lowest value that will even start the fan. You might also have to change the path, depending on whether you have CPU+GPU, or APU+GPU, like I do. Furthermore, this doesn't seem to be a persistent solution, I have to run this on every reboot. I'll have to look into this more.)

I also opted to set the forced performance level, but I'm not yet sure whether this has any effect on the outcome:
sudo bash -c "echo low > /sys/class/drm/card1/device/power_dpm_force_performance_level"

The previously mentioned "radeon-profile" would be quite a bit better option, but unfortunately it doesn't work for me.

TL;DR: If you're thinking about going pico-/NanoPSU and a discrete GPU, then this will make a fine option:
- <65W CPU (/APU)
- Gigabyte RX 460
- Streacom Nano160
If you're going with a 65W CPU, then you will probably have to downclock the GPU. With a 45W CPU, you most likely don't have to do this. Though I would still recommend it, as the RX 460 seems to downclock nicely.
 
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Power consumption before and after:
I haven't checked the RX 460 at all with the 600W. So I don't have the power draw readings on 65W APU mode with GPU's full clocks, as the total power draw went straight above 160W, and didn't want to let it run the full benchmark, for fear of hardware failure.

But I do have the power draw readings for 45W APU mode, on both full clocks and lower clocks of the GPU. The figures are inside the spoiler on my previous message.
(actually, the clocks and voltages are all -1, but I rounded them up for more clarity)

Wattage draw before GPU:
The 90W was TOTAL power draw under Heaven benchmark, which usually manages to get the highest draw out of the system (FurMark is another). On games, it was around 70-80W. Also, if the TDP is 65W, then the actual power draw should in theory be slightly above, if the APU is fully utilised. You get higher utilisation in synthetic benchmarks, whereas gaming is usually slightly below. And you have to remember that the rest of the system draws power, as well.

Side note:
In benchmarks with the 65W APU TDP mode and an underclocked GPU, the power draw is 130-140W, but on games it is usually indeed around 110-120W. But some games also manage to draw closer to 130W. I'd prefer to leave some breathing room for the PSU, so sub-140W is preferable for the "worst case scenario".

For 120W PSU, the RX 460 is quite pushing it, IMO. Hopefully there is some air in the G860's TDP. And there probably is. Bear in mind that AMD APUs have quite powerful GPU parts in them, while Intel certainly doesn't (at least not in anything <£300). IIRC, Intel is sometimes quite lax on their TDP figures, slapping the same figure to a wider range on CPUs, even though some of them might be closer to 40W than 65W. Actually, I think at some point there was some discussion on how the two companies calculated the TDP quite differently. And indeed, a "65W TDP" processor drawing only 30W on games probably means that it's closer to 40W TDP, in real life.

Anyway, some run-of-the-mill watt meters cost like £10, so you should definitely buy one, to make sure you're safely below the 120W of your PSU. I'd recommend staying below 105W.

Miscellaneous tips:
Like said in my earlier messages, I value silence over everything else. So I took out the stock dual cooler, and swapped it with the previously mentioned Arctic Cooling Accelero S1 rev2, and slapped a Noctua A15 PWM on it. But to make the GPU control the fan, I also had to make a custom GPU-CPU PWM fan adapter. You can also purchase one, along the lines of Gelid CA-PWM-02 PWM Fan Adapter or EK-Cable PWM Fan Adapter for GPU.

And let me tell you: this is miles better. It's first of all more silent, but it also runs much cooler. I haven't yet made a permanent holder for the A15, so I still have an open case. And when gaming, I can see that the fan quite oftenly stops moving, as the temperature is so low (while gaming!). But there's a compromise: it takes the space of three slots. There's actually only 1cm clearance on my Raidmax case, so I'm thinking of cutting a mesh hole at the case ceiling (the motherboard layout is upside down, so the GPU slots are on the upper part), and possibly even turn the fan to blow the air directly outside the case.
 
@wahala:
Not sure whether the chip/core placement is universal, and how that affects compatibility. I wouldn't expect it to work on low profile cards, for example. But at least the mounting gear on the Accelero has two mounting holes per leg. My earlier GPU (nVidia GTS250) used different holes than what the RX460 is using. Not sure if the holes are divided between nVidia and AMD standards, or whether there are more standard sizes, but at least it's compatible with both GPUs I've tried it with.

Also, there were some compatibility issues with the GTS250. The washers/spacers on the Accelero were too thick, and the base didn't make a properly tight contact with the GPU, which resulted in higher temperatures, so had to take the spacers off. After that, everything was ok. Other customers voiced similar experiences.

I think I used the spacers on some other project, so now the RX460 is without the spacers, as well. This brought another problem, as the legs were already slightly bent and conformed during the years (they were in use since 2008 or 2009, I think), which made it possible to tighten the screws too much, which apparently allowed the metal legs to create a shortcut with one of the board's SMD resistors, which was right under one of the legs. As a result, the RX460 wouldn't allow the computer to boot. Not sure whether the resistor placement is standard on every RX460, or whether it was Gigabyte's own design choice. Anyway, once I loosened the screws a bit, it's been working solidly ever since.

Unfortunately, the Accelero is quite old (from 2007), so it might be hard to find. There's Accelero S1 Plus from 2012, which seems like the heftier successor for S1 rev2. There's also S3 from 2015, which is apparently the "upgraded" two-sided version of the S1 serie. There's also the Raijintek Morpheus (from 2014), which is more focused on heavy loads (claims 360W), so it might indeed fare quite well even as a passive cooler. Then again, the fin gaps are quite narrow, so not sure how effective it would be at heat dissipation without an active airflow.

With my RX460, the cooler swap was fairly straight-forward, in itself. Remove card from slot, unscrew and remove the stock cooler, unplug fan connector, clean heat paste residue, apply new paste, plug fan connector/adapter, screw new cooler in, attach fan, insert card back to slot. Took me about 5-10 minutes, apart from figuring out that one of the metal legs was making a shortcut (which I actually already suspected when I was screwing the cooler on the board).

Ps. Keep in mind that it's usually better to keep multiple fans at low speed, instead of one or two fans at high speed. And bigger fans are always better. I currently have one 120mm fan at ~800rpm (CPU), and one 140mm fan at ~0-600rpm (GPU). Dead silent.

Ps2. The cabinet might actually bring more problems than benefits. If it's a closed unit, then the heat will gather inside the cabinet, making the ambient temperature higher, and thus making the fans spin harder.

Ps3. The HDPLEX-250W that LePhuronn linked is indeed an interesting alternative, and should open new possibilities. But IIRC, the problem arose with sourcing a compatible power brick. I don't think it comes with one, and that increases the costs further, not to mention research time.
 
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