Subwoofer for a NAD D3045

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I have a NAD D3045 and a pair of Monitor Audio Bronze 5's which aren't very good for bass.

I was thinking of buying a REL subwoofer I have found on offer, an HT1003.

To set it up do I just plug the relevant cables from the amp's sub pre/sub out to the subwoofer's
low level in plugs then set the crossover to whatever option I select on the amp. I think these
are HP 120hz, 80hz and 40z.

I am confused what the other switches are for though?
 
You can either use high or low level cable, whatever your amp and sub has,.it doesn't matter unless your amp is class d which high level could cause damage

You then adjust the subs crossover to somewhere around where you speakers reach down to, but you may have room gain or null where the speakers drop off so you'll need to experiment. For those speakers probably looking around 50hz on the sub but go between 40-60.

Phase is relative to speakers so you need to play around with that, in a hifi you don't have any auto phase adjustment (delay)

Also check bk subwoofers perhaps better value than rel
 
As floorstanders with 5.5" mid/bass drivers go, the last thing I'd describe Bronze 5s as is "poor for bass" (paraphrasing here). However, if you're expecting them to compete with floorstanders at 2 and 3x the price then you've bought the wrong speakers and should have spent far far more. Having said that, a good 12" sub at £500 will produce deeper bass than a pair of B&W 801 D4 at £28,000 a pair, so if it's bass you crave then a sub is the answer.

REL makes some nice subs. I have one of their Stadium II myself. However, if I was buying today then I'd give a serious look at the BK sub range first. BK was the manufacturer of Peter Lord's REL designs, so the firm has good pedigree. They sell direct to end users which means you're not saddled with the dealer's profit margin. That makes BK subs exceptional value.

Personally, I'd start by looking at their P12-300 range. There are three models each in a range of finishes. The DF and FF versions have a single 12" bass driver. The PR model adds a passive radiator (a bass driver cone without the magnet and coil assembly). This is used to increase the bass output from a sealed subwoofer design. Depending on finish the range is available from a shade over £400 up to £500. There's a review of the P12 here: https://www.avforums.com/reviews/bk-electronics-p12-300sb-subwoofer-review.11864/ The rest of the range can be seen at https://bkelectronics.co.uk/

Connections: The D3054 has a set of stereo RCA sockets which act as the subwoofer connection. Both the REL and the BK have stereo RCA inputs for the same. There's no mention of a mono output for the 3045 sub connection, so it looks like a stereo cable will need to be used to get both channel signals from the amp to the sub.

Controls:

Level is fairly easy to understand. I think you already understand that it's the volume level of the sub relative to the speakers. If the sub is too quiet or too loud then the control will be adjusted up or down accordingly

Crossover is the blend point. The bass output from the main speakers will fall away naturally as the frequency gets lower. The Crossover setting is a frequency filter. Starting at the lowest point, you'll increase the setting gradually so that the sub's output dovetails with the speakers. This will take a little practise and you may find yourself coming back to this a few times over a week or so as you get used to listening for a hole or too much overlap.

Phase is the timing of the sub output relative to your stereo speakers. This sounds like a complicated thing, but IMO it's easier to adjust than Crossover. The reason for phase is that the sub can't be in exactly the same space as either of your main speakers. When there's a difference in position then the bass signals will reach your ears at slightly different times. Phase is the adjustment to correct that. The method of adjustment is quite straightforward:

  • set the crossover frequency so there's a definite overlap between the sub and the main speakers. In your case 80Hz will do
  • put on some bass heavy music. Then starting at 0 degrees listen for the amount of bass from the sub and speakers combined when you're sat in your main listening position
  • get a helper to gradually increase the phase setting. The bass will either get weaker or stronger. You're aiming for the strongest
It might take two or three passes through the optimum setting to nail it down. That's fine. Just go with it. When it's at its strongest then the waves of bass energy from the sub and the Bronze 5 bass drivers are reaching you at the same time. They're said to be in phase. You might also want to check that the main speakers are in phase with each other. Do this BEFORE doing the sub adjustment. This is a simpler affair. Choose ONE speaker. With the sub switched off, reverse the red and black speaker wire connections on the one speaker you have chosen. If the bass gets weaker then the speaker were wired correctly before. If it gets stronger then the cabling got mixed up and you've just corrected it. Swap the cable markings accordingly.

Once you have phase nailed then go on to adjust the crossover setting.


[NB: I started writing this before others had responded, so apologies to all that I covered some of the same ground.]
 
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I wrote that post in a rush and ended up being semi-literate.

I meant to state I have a pair of Monitor Audio Bronze 6G 50s, which have 5" woofers. Not five foot woofers and they certainly aren't floorstanders.

Those are great explanations of the settings and I'll look at the BK subs. The XLS200 or Geminis looks like good alternatives to the REL product.

Thanks for the help.
 
I wrote that post in a rush and ended up being semi-literate.

I meant to state I have a pair of Monitor Audio Bronze 6G 50s, which have 5" woofers. Not five foot woofers and they certainly aren't floorstanders.

Those are great explanations of the settings and I'll look at the BK subs. The XLS200 or Geminis looks like good alternatives to the REL product.

Thanks for the help.

How big is the room?
 
10.8 square metres.

How bad could a £150 Wharfdale SW150 be?

For the money there's not a lot to compete with the SW150. I'll say that again... For. The. Money.

What are your alternatives right now at a similar kind of price? The £149 Tibo Harmony; an 8" reflex sub with a 100W amp and no real pedigree in this sector....... Pass. The Polk PSW10e at £179? A 50W reflex sub but this time with a 10" driver. It's better made than the Tibo, but do you really want to throw and extra £30 at this compared to the Wharfedale for just a 50W amp? Hmm... How about the £199 Q Acoustics 3070S with its slim design and twin 6.5" drivers. That's great if SWMBO says the choice is "it lives in the skinny space behind the sofa or you get no sub at all", but that's really it's niche. It's a "lifestyle" sub for the whipped.

Below £150??? Well, unless you're buying an open box (return) product or some clearance deal then there really isn't much out there.

The conclusion then is that the Wharfedale is the smarter choice at just £150. It comes from a company that has been building loudspeakers for almost 90 years, and one that has won many awards and plaudits. The 150 sub combines a 10" driver with a 150W class D amp plate with both low- and high-level* drive options (*unusual at the price) with the economies of scale that come from volume production in China. The ported (reflex) design gives a useful boost to audible output which makes the sub loud enough to keep movie enthusiasts happy for the price.

So, the 150 is a slam-dunk, right?

Not exactly. On paper it looks great, and in the flesh you'd be hard pressed to be really critical of the build. Where things start to get a little loose at the seams is with the performance. More than a few users have commented that it never really digs as deep at the specs suggest, and finding a place in the room where it's happy can be... er... challenging. IMO these are both issues relating to entry-level ported designs.

The port is useful for getting more output per Watt of amp power compared to sealed designs, but like all things, there are some compromises. The port works a bit like blowing over the top of an empty bottle. It's not letting more bass out. Instead you're hearing a tuned note; the port resonance. This means that once the speaker gets down to a certain frequency then you're hearing the port rather than the driver. In effect, the bass extension hits a sonic brick wall below which the sub doesn't do anything useful. Contrast this with sealed box sub designs (no reflex port). They don't go as loud Watt for Watt, but neither do they suffer the brick wall cut-off effect. Sealed subs go deeper for that bass-you-can-feel effect so long as there's enough power on tap.

Being sealed also makes these subs easier to place in room. This is to do with something called room gain.

At first reading, the idea that you get a bass boost simply by virtue of putting a sub in a room sounds like a win-win. Free extra bass. What's not to love, right? Except it's not quite that straightforward.

You see, ported subs (and ported loudspeakers for that matter) have a fairly linear output as the frequency falls. If you were to measure a ported- versus a sealed-box sub out in an open field, the sealed box would show a bass roll off as the frequency drops whereas the ported box wouldn't until the measurement point gets lower than the port frequency.

Take the sealed sub and put it in a room though and suddenly the room's effect flattens the response curve. Now the sealed sub looks far more linear; a flat line, and that's good. The room gain compensates for the sealed sub's roll off. It's a bit counterintuitive, but as long as there's enough power from the internal amp, then the smaller sealed sub delivers cleaner and more extended bass than the larger-boxed ported sub. (What?!!!). The catch is amp power, and also driver quality, but mostly amp power.

When you put the ported sub in a room then the same room gain effect occurs. This time though the resulting frequency response is anything but flat. There's a steadily rising hump as frequency falls. The result is boomy bass that you can never really flatten out regardless of room position. It gets worse in the room corners, but never goes away even when the sub is positioned further along a wall. The smaller the room then the higher the frequency that room gain starts to kick in. Where the driver itself is maybe not so linear due to cost compromises, and maybe too the cabinet construction is a bit resonant, then this can contribute to a lack of precision on top of the effects of room gain.

SVS has a good primer on room gain complete with some simple graphs. It's worth a read: https://www.svsound.com/blogs/subwoofer-setup-and-tuning/what-is-subwoofer-room-gain

Your start point was a REL 1003, a sealed 10" 300W sub which sells for around the £400 mark. Now you're looking at a £150 ported 10" 150W Wharfedale. It's a country mile away in terms of performance compared to the REL, not to mention being physically larger and potentially more difficult to place due to the room size. If you had a budget movie/gaming system and £200 was your absolute limit then I could make a convincing case for the SW150. On its own merits it's a good sub for movies and gaming. Less so for music, but there isn't anything head-and-shoulders better under £200 unless there's something on a one-off clearance deal.

At £250 I think a Gemini II versus the Wharfedale - especially if music is important - would walk it in a room like yours. As @hornetstinger suggested, and XLS200 would beat the Gemini II, but at that point the REL HT/1003 comes in cheaper for a similar spec.




LINKS
Reflex port resonance (Helmholtz frequency): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZVeJ2rh6ts
 
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I just built a sub.

Inphase XT8 V2.
Ebay: Visual Ice (Custom sealed subwoofer box made of thick MDF usiung the parameters of the subwoofer manufacturer)
Luckily the XT8 V2 is the exact same design as DD Audio's 508D so used those.
Vibe 400.1 amp powered by 1000 watt PC PSU or you could just go grab a plate amp, rather ask Visual Ice to cut a hole in the back of the custom box to the size of your plate amp or ask them to put in a terminal cup hole and make it as a passive with separate amp like I have.

Thing hits really low and hard, bettering my old cheap ported Vibe Pulse 12 with stuffing.

24 quid for a raw MDF box, solid and really well made.


bfM4C4E.jpg
 
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Finish on the BK's are nicer, real wood veneer, and classic styling.
The Rel is vinyl wrap, and looks pretty tacky.

The Rel is Class D, which is more efficient.
BK could suffer from hum/buzz.
Rel has RCA outputs, if you intend to use pass through (probably pass through only not high pass)
Rel only has line level input, BK has high and low level inputs, with seperate volume setting per input
 
Oh since OP has class D amp, probably not a good idea to get class D sub. Believe you can cause damage somewhere if using high level
True. But only true if using the high level (speaker level) connection from amp to sub.

BK do have an accessory which blocks the harmful voltage component in a Class D speaker output so that anyone with a Class D amp without pre-outs can still make the high level connection.

Using the low level (RCA) connections there's no issue at all for any amp/sub combo.
 
This is a class D sub on a class D amp. (Low level RCA input)

Sub moves a lot on low volume, designed for high SPL / SQ in a small space, hence the super fat surround, had double stacked 90oz magnets.
If you saw the 508D before, same basket, same magnets, same dual voice coil and same surround just this has a Kevlar cone, seems to be two companies using the same manufacturer.


Honestly make your own sub, way better than any crap you can get for that price.
The XT8 sub is almost always on sale from other retailers (Can't mention here) just type Inphase XT8 into your search engine. The company with the smiley face logo is the lowest price, they also do a 10 and 12" version. 50 quid for the driver, 30 max for the box from visual ice and 100 pounds for the 400.1 Vibe amp... if you have a PSU, there is no sub out there that comes near it, just as long as you give visual ice the recommended parameters from DD Audio for the 508D as it is needed, either ported or sealed as you prefer.


I don't recommend going the car amp setup route, but if you already have a large ample power supply knocking around that has a high amperage 12v rail like mine has (84 amps) Then it makes better sense to go the route I have, I have since double sided velcro'd the amp and PSU to the rear of the sub cab, neat and hidden away. You would never know it was powered by car audio gear, but alas it's not for everyone especially those lacking knowledge enough to pull it off and absolutely no warranty.

Parameters: https://ddaudio.com/500-series/power-tuned/508d/
 
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