System synergy and "source first"

[Mr_Sukebe]

Unfortunately there's been something of a renaisance during the last few years about the importance of more speakers, multi-channel amplifiers and the like. One of the side effects has been the downgrading of the perceived importance of the source on a system.
Over the weekend, I had a very interesting reminder of just how critical the front end is.

A chap I know popped down with a new PSU and digital interconnect for the DAC that I'm using. Frankly I was pretty gobsmacked with the improvement.

As background, for a few weeks I've been using a Meridian 203 DAC, which IMO is probaly capable of competing with any modern £500 CDP that can be bought. It's a fairly good DAC, reasonable life, not bad tonal accuracy, but once the system is full warmed, adds a slightly edgy unpleasant digital "sheen" to the sound.

The first test was my *** with it's new PSU. Sure enough, wiped away the digital sheen with lovely level of naturalness, particularly in the mid-range. Unfortunately it was a little lacking in control at the frequency extremes.

Out of interest, we tried a new DAC that my friend has built, which uses 8 DAC chips in parallel (all 1543s), the theory being that the parallel running will even out error correction issues. The side effect being that you need an Op amp output stage. Tidied up the frequency extremes, but lost some of the naturalness in the mid range. Pros and cons, but personally I couldn't live with it, and went back to the ***.

The we added the new digital IC that he'd built for the ***. Completely cleaned out a whole layer of "hash" and smear that I'd never realised even existed, resulting in most of the better frequency extremes. Initially it was a little disconcerting as I've grown used to stereos having a little bleed around the edges on performers. This really solidified them. To try to explain the differences, imagine a normal female singer infront of you (that's the after), now stick a airline into the singer (ACME cartoon style) and blow her up so she's twice the diameter, that was the before. Just can't think of how better to explain it.
Definitely a big improvement.

So all in all, successful time, especially for so little cash.
Note that absolutely none of the above involved changes to either the DAC, or the amp/speakers. It was all about the quality of signal going into the DAC. So the next time you see a CD player advert blathering about the DAC chip, ask a few questions about the quality of the transport, clocks and power supply.

 

[DRZ]

As I am in the process of building my own DAC at the moment I have been researching factors that affect DAC quality a lot. On my travels, I have finally come across something that goes a little way to explaining what you are hearing.

As you may know, an interconnect is supposed to be exactly 75 ohms. The whole of the system between the output of the transport and the input of the DAC must also be 75 ohms. Without this precise matching (and this isnt just a property of the cable) you introduce factors that increase jitter. Nothing else, just jitter.

As a function of the length of the cable, this jitter can be minimised by simply installing a longer cable.

However, precise matching of the resistances of the transport output wiring/PCB traces and DAC input wiring/traces are significantly more important.

If you are serious about getting the absolute best from your transport, you need to look at the rise times used for the digital pulses and tinker with that, but that requires intimate knowledge of the circuitry of the transport and nerves of steel!

 

[Mr_Sukebe]

I get the impression that the best thing for my transport would be a new clock circuit such as the Trichord 4 setup. Problem is that it's not cheap.

What I do fancy doing is getting a comparison of my existing front end (transport/dac) against a new CDP. My shortlist presently includes the Consonance Droplet (heard it at Heathrow, sounded lush), the Resolution Audio Opus CD21 and a couple of Wadia units.
Chances are that my existing CDP will get blown out of the water, in which I'll need to do a lot of saving. The Wadia units would cost me more than I paid for my car.
If my CDP gets close, then I'll think about the Trichord upgrade.

 

[james.miller]

i've been wanting to build a DAC for a long time now. If you guys could point my townards some kits a can put together i'd be most greatful

 

[DRZ]

i've been wanting to build a DAC for a long time now. If you guys could point my townards some kits a can put together i'd be most greatful

Dont build it from a kit if you can help it - I have learned so much about various things from drawing up my own schematics! If you dont have the time, skills or inclination to design your own, I think DIYAudio.com has some info on kits etc Committed is probably the man to see on that score.

 

[james.miller]

Oh i probably could do it, but from scratch? i dunno lol. Now building from a diagram, that's right up my ally lol

 

[Mr_Sukebe]

I believe that Committed tried/heard a kit called a Monica2. Run a search on google and you should be able to find it. I'm sure that it's a mail order item from the US.
Committed has a DAC the same as mine, and rated the Monica2 as even better, infering that it's a rather good bit of kit.
So that would be my suggestion.

 

[james.miller]

ahh the monica2. yes i've heard of it. It's diyparadise.com that sell them, i'd be looking at around 70usd for the kit. im not sure the prices aren't exactly clear lol

 

[commited]

Interesting post Mr_S. Cash funds are currently being zapped by my car, so I've been trying to avoid thinking about hi-fi, but you've given me some ideas when I complete uni (2months now!) and get a graduate job.
I suggest strongly that you order a Monica2 - it's $150 fully assembled, ready to go (just needs PSU - any 12v 1a DC power supply). I think you'll find it even better than the n.os, but I cant guarantee it. All I know is that it was a 100% improvement from a guy who wanted the N.OS to be better!

James - the kit available for $75 doesnt include all the parts I think.
It's worth firing Neo off an email and asking him - he's a friendly guy.

The only disadvantage of the Monica 2 is the slightly quieter output than other DACs - not really an issue with most amps.

 

[9designs2]

Hasn't the trend of more recent years been for manufactures to go away from separate DACs and back to integrated units ??
To get over the above cable and Jitter problems use to see "sync" leads being used, My old Linn did and I think Arcam as well.
Have designs advanced, and cost reduced now that a separate DAC may not be the best way to go ?
It would be good to hear "N.0.S" or "Monica2" against a top brand one box solution.

Interesting point about front end bias, current HiFi World mag has a feature how with the reduced costs of CDPs it doesn't need 50% or more spent on the front end to get a balanced system. Vinyl yes still required, but some good CDPs about that can happily feed speakers twice there value. Again we are taking integrated one box players.

Was tempted to try a Monica2 on the back of my old Karik to see how it stacked up.... But power supplies always put me off... I'm of the belief that they are fundamental to a good sound, and a wall-wart doesn't convince me !

Mr_S what's your budget going to be for a new front end ?

 

[Mr_Sukebe]

9>
The budget really will be dependant upon the gains.
I simply don't know how much better any of the units will be when compared to my existing front end.
Could be that the more expensive units are only slightly better, or just different, in which case it'll be a waste of dosh. On the other hand, could be that I simply MUST have a Wadia 861, in which case it will be a LOT of money.
In short, I don't have an absolute budget (the 861 will probably cost £5k), however I do want to get value for money (IMO), so a lot of money better give a lot of return.

 

[DRZ]

9>
The budget really will be dependant upon the gains.
I simply don't know how much better any of the units will be when compared to my existing front end.
Could be that the more expensive units are only slightly better, or just different, in which case it'll be a waste of dosh. On the other hand, could be that I simply MUST have a Wadia 861, in which case it will be a LOT of money.
In short, I don't have an absolute budget (the 861 will probably cost £5k), however I do want to get value for money (IMO), so a lot of money better give a lot of return.

Im sure I am not the only one thinking you are absolutely bonkers spending £5,000 on a CD Player!

Are you sure the point of diminishing return wasnt way, way back and you have just become hypercritical now?

I would argue that spending £5k on some kind of acoustic treatment for your listening space would do a lot for the sound quality! I know the listening room here at uni cost them upwards of a million quid to do but you could get something thats along those lines for that sort of money.

Just something to think about.

 

[9designs2]

Im sure I am not the only one thinking you are absolutely bonkers spending £5,000 on a CD Player!

Are you sure the point of diminishing return wasnt way, way back and you have just become hypercritical now?

I would argue that spending £5k on some kind of acoustic treatment for your listening space would do a lot for the sound quality! I know the listening room here at uni cost them upwards of a million quid to do but you could get something thats along those lines for that sort of money.

Just something to think about.

Sure the "law of Diminishing returns" exists but it's relative to each person....Go have a listen to some "high end" kit..... see what you think.

Spending 5K on anything could be seen as Bonkers .......

But then I'm hardly going to knock spending a lot am I ......

There's a Unidisk 1.1 on auction !!!

 

[Mr_Sukebe]

Im sure I am not the only one thinking you are absolutely bonkers spending £5,000 on a CD Player!

Are you sure the point of diminishing return wasnt way, way back and you have just become hypercritical now?

If I don't think it's worth the dosh, then I won't do it, really is that simple.
Diminishing returns is an interesting concept.
My thoughts are that people simply want to upgrade and always improve on things. They stop when they run out of money and are temporarily "happy" with what they have. When more money is available, it's easy to justify an upgrade. That simple really.

If you want to find out what a large chunk of money gets on a sound system, and are in London, look me up and I'll give you a dem. I promise that the differences are substantially bigger than the magazines will lead you to believe.

 

[DRZ]

I have heard so-called "High-end" kit in the past. Im not going to say the differences werent there because they were (and the quality of the reproduction was in most cases simply astonishing) but to me, the difference between a £1/2/3000 CD player and a £22,000 CD player were marginal at best. Is a £5000 CDP even going to come close to a worthwhile upgrade, considering your other options?

Its obvious that yourself and 9designs2 have a passion for hifi that forms a significant part of your life (not to mention an impressive bank balance ) but I would have serious reservations about buying a CDP for that kind of money when the money burning a hole in my pocket could be spent elsewhere for significantly more gain.

The differences correctly applied acoustical treatments will make to a room are simply breathtaking. We are talking night-and-day changes to the way a room behaves. Simple things like bass traps at any "concave" corners to help remove some bass modes, and panel diffusers to help with impulse responses and flutter echo. Not massively costly in comparison (and not too bad looking, either) and definitely bigger gains to be had.

I have had the pleasure of listening to the changes made in a room as it was changed to meet the relevant ISO standard and it made a far bigger change to the quality of the listening experience than an upgrade of the equipment in the room would have given.

I know what its like when you are sitting atop a huge sum of money and think "yes, I will buy that one" but its a significant sum of money and personally I wouldnt go for the new shiny box, I would go for the biggest return on my investment.

You have a corking setup that you enjoy immensely - why not squeeze even more value for money out of that before beginning to upgrade?

 

[9designs2]

I'd be very interested to learn more about room treatment, as I've recently added a pair of speakers capable of some real low notes, and getting them working well is a challenge !!! What do you do with 20 Hz notes !!!!

Equally £22K CDP is Bonkers... even I'm note going to justify that one

But 5K ? adjust for inflation and many have paid that for years.... Perhaps more so in years past as the "value" of Hi Fi or music in peoples lives has slipped down the importance ladder, last time I saw a report some where below designer trainers !!!

Back to 5K player vs room treatment..... you are comparing relative to absolute, a 5K vs 1K player will make the similar improvement in either room. just the absolute performance will be better in the treated room. Therefor you "need" to do both !!!!!
The other day I was tweaking the speaker position of my floor standing Kabers in a very small room, had a little one note bass boom issue. So unplugged a £1400 Karik CDP and tried a 6.5K Unidisk 1.1, problem went away !!!! Not the most cost effect solution maybe (well it actually sounded great all round) but shows "Source first" still has it's place... as weak front end can exaggerate other problems.
Not finished the room yet, it's to have a sofa bed, which should again change the room behavour. (empty at present).

Can I make Bass traps ???.... and will the wife let them in the house !

 

[DRZ]

You can make bass traps, if you are good at maths Diffuser / absorber design maths is a long way off for me yet, maybe one day I will be equipped to design one that works well!

http://www.nonoise.co.uk/basstraps/basstrap.htm

That's what they look like - that one was designed by one of my Professors and I have heard them in use - they really do work!

The absorbtion given to you for free by the sofa bed will go a huge way to reducing reverberation at low frequencies too.

Open 2 litre coke bottles are also Helmholtz resonators and give ludicrous absorbtion at a certain frequencies. Useful? Maybe

Diffusion combined with absorbtion applied correctly will give you a pleasant sounding room indeed. Your speakers are a damn sight flatter than any untreated room!

Go and put the thickest blanket you can find over the radiator in your listening room and tell me how it changes the sound. How about doubling it over and hanging it behind you on the wall? These changes are all fairly small compared to what a proper treatment will give you.

Slap two pieces of wood together in front of you as hard as you physically can. Can you hear the room ringing? Its doing that after EVERY impulse you send out from your speakers.

So much to consider before you take the step to spend loads more on equipment

 

[tom_nieto]

I'd definitely be willing to spend a considerable amount of cash on a hi-fi, but I was thinking about the room situation earlier today. In my current state of affairs I would probably see no benefit in upgrading my system because the room is not suited to hi-fi at all really (big desk between the speakers, lots of mess, cellar below the room, noisy power supply, the list goes on). I would certainly look at isolating the room acoustically from the rest of the house so I could listen to the music without disturbing anyone. Acoustic treatments for optimising the sound I suppose would be the next logical step. Everybody likes different things, so much demoing and testing would be in order.

I think my next hi-fi purchase will have to be some sort of DAC to replace my AV amp as a DAC for my PC. Who knows, it might even be good enough to replace the DAC on my CD player. Moving to stereo is a very tempting option indeed, but seeing as I have all the kit it's also tempting to leave it all be!

 

[DRZ]

I would certainly look at isolating the room acoustically from the rest of the house

If you were to go to the letter of that, you would certainly be looking at costings of upwards of hundreds of thousands of pounds, as well as losing either a lot of the room size or a lot of the rest of your house.

I am almost entirely sure that isnt what you want, and therefore most attempts at soundproofing are going to be largely unsuccessful

Acoustically treating your room is a different matter and can be accomplished without impacting on the room toooooo much.

Your desire to soundproof would also indicate high SPL listening - anything over 94dB is undesireable really and WILL damage your hearing over prolonged exposure. 94dB over a 15 year period is going to be more or less as damaging as a short blast of 140dB to your ears - not exactly what you want when you value your hearing. I am exceptionally careful about how much exposure to sound I let my ears endure!

 

[Mr_Sukebe]

A few thoughts:
- Different people have different priorities in life. In my own, I don't love hi-fi, but I do love music, and understand that getting a good system together aids my love of it. That's why I throw a sizeable chunk of disposable income at it.
- I'm very likely to move in the next two to three months, meaning that playing with room interaction is a little pointless at present
- As 9 has already suggest, kit does change the interaction in a room. A lot of cheaper kit simply doesn't have the control or clean signal that a more expensive system has. Just changing my digital IC improved that, so there's clearly more to come in that area
- Once I've moved, I'd be very interested in playing with room acoustics, better find out what size room I'll have to play with first. Lets just say that the listening room will be one of the key things I'll be thinking about during the choice of where to move to. In my last apartment, I remember walking into the lounge on the viewing and thinking "this room isn't the usual rectangle, it'll be great for acoustics", sure enough, certainly was.