Taking religion to work

Pawnless Endgame · 27 Sep 2013 at 20:34

A couple of recent articles for reading:

1. Doctor sacked for emailing bible quotes
2. Doctors and nurses using full-face veils

1. I think that the bible verses should be down to colleague discretion. If they share that interest, then fine. If it's clear that they're not interested and the Christian keeps trying it on, then bad call. This happened to me, not bible verses as such but they repeatedly played the conversion card on me, saying stuff like "it's the most important decision you'll make in your life, even more important than marriage". Nope - I would love my wife more than a deity because she's REAL!! Of the 2 people that were attacking me, one ended up resigning (because I grassed him up) and the other got the chop not long after. However, what would have happened if someone was caught emailing us Quoranic verses? IMO, I don't think that any of the softies would dare to sack him in fear of losing their own jobs due to being discriminatory against their religion. Oh no sorry, I meant being 'racist' :rolleyes:

2. Wearing full-face veils at work. As a patient, I would want to see their face. That's the meaning of a face-to-face appointment, right? I'm hard of hearing, so I do need to lip read a bit to supplement speech. At my workplace (again medical sector), our nurses are not allowed to wear necklaces bearing the cross symbol. So why impose rules for our own country's religion (even though I'm not fussed, being an atheist), and yet why are we lax regarding another religion?

bloodiedathame · 27 Sep 2013 at 20:37

1) That's stupid.

2) There's only one thing for it you know? Everyone on the planet should veil-up. No more arguing. CCTV might become a thing of the past. Result!

SlyReaper · 27 Sep 2013 at 20:51

Monserrat said:
A couple of recent articles for reading:

1. Doctor sacked for emailing bible quotes
2. Doctors and nurses using full-face veils

1. I think that the bible verses should be down to colleague discretion. If they share that interest, then fine. If it's clear that they're not interested and the Christian keeps trying it on, then bad call. This happened to me, not bible verses as such but they repeatedly played the conversion card on me, saying stuff like "it's the most important decision you'll make in your life, even more important than marriage". Nope - I would love my wife more than a deity because she's REAL!! Of the 2 people that were attacking me, one ended up resigning (because I grassed him up) and the other got the chop not long after. However, what would have happened if someone was caught emailing us Quoranic verses? IMO, I don't think that any of the softies would dare to sack him in fear of losing their own jobs due to being discriminatory against their religion. Oh no sorry, I meant being 'racist'

2. Wearing full-face veils at work. As a patient, I would want to see their face. That's the meaning of a face-to-face appointment, right? I'm hard of hearing, so I do need to lip read a bit to supplement speech. At my workplace (again medical sector), our nurses are not allowed to wear necklaces bearing the cross symbol. So why impose rules for our own country's religion (even though I'm not fussed, being an atheist), and yet why are we lax regarding another religion?

Regarding your second point, by my understanding, face coverings have nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with culture. A somewhat misogynistic culture, for sure, but I don't think there's any mention of female face coverings in any religious text.

estebanrey · 27 Sep 2013 at 20:52

I sat next to a very forward and fundementalist Christian once, she kept trying to covert me but luckily I'm a staunch atheist who can hold my own. I'd just debate with her and point out how ridiculous her views were (when she the subject up which was everyday of course).

Her only retort was that her husband was an atheist who had a dream one day and found Jesus (the implication being I was the uneducated on who hadn't had my eyes opened yet).

dowie · 27 Sep 2013 at 21:08

SlyReaper said:
Regarding your second point, by my understanding, face coverings have nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with culture. A somewhat misogynistic culture, for sure, but I don't think there's any mention of female face coverings in any religious text.

that's not true... its a mixture of religion and culture

deuse · 27 Sep 2013 at 21:40

dowie said:
that's not true... its a mixture of religion and culture

It's a sand mask I've yet to see a sand storm in any NHS hospital.

dowie · 27 Sep 2013 at 22:12

some urban 'yoof' wear hoodies when its not raining.... people wear sunglasses at night/indoors... Geordies don't wear coats in winter... homeless people wear NBC suits despite the lack of a chemical threat....

Vulcan · 27 Sep 2013 at 22:14

dowie said:
some urban 'yoof' wear hoodies when its not raining.... people wear sunglasses at night/indoors... Geordies don't wear coats in winter... homeless people wear NBC suits despite the lack of a chemical threat....

Not whilst working.

Sayso · 27 Sep 2013 at 22:17

dowie said:
some urban 'yoof' wear hoodies when its not raining.... people wear sunglasses at night/indoors... Geordies don't wear coats in winter... homeless people wear NBC suits despite the lack of a chemical threat....

whats that got to do with religion..

Derek W · 27 Sep 2013 at 22:19

If I want to know things about religion ill go to a library or a church. Wouldn't want that tripe spouted to me in any form at work.....

dowie · 27 Sep 2013 at 22:20

Sayso said:
whats that got to do with religion..

nothing - it was in reply to a post about wearing clothing items in the absence of conditions they were designed to be worn in... i.e. the lack of sandstorms in NHS hospitals

estebanrey · 27 Sep 2013 at 22:26

Yes, imagine a medical professional covering their face...

If it's good enough for surgeons, why not doctors and nurses? They should be mandatory if anything.

Pawnless Endgame · 27 Sep 2013 at 22:32

estebanrey said:
If it's good enough for surgeons, why not doctors and nurses? They should be mandatory if anything.

... because you are asleep when you are being operated on. I was going on about face-to-face meetings in my OP. People may want to lip read and/or use body language (which ofc works both ways). Familiarise themselves with their doctor / nurse.

Xordium · 27 Sep 2013 at 22:39

1) Didn't happen like that at all. They've missed exactly what was going on at the Manor and the context and a few incidents shall we say ... (that is not blaming the chap but rather the really **** way NHS managers shaft people who whistleblow because all they give a stuff about it sticking their nose up various politicians ****** to further their own political career or career in general)

2) Communication is key - non-verbal making up a large percentage of communication is especially key. However, with all the cultural differences and interpretations one should give neutral non-verbal cues and clear verbal information that would be able to relayed without or with a facial covering. Likewise going back the other way any health professional who is attempting to discern whether someone has 'got' information or is attempting to read someone is say a social care protection case is going to get on sticky ground when they have to submit actual factual occurrences not vague psychological hunches. Face mask usage is prevalent in infectious disease areas and the information is gained and given just fine.

estebanrey · 27 Sep 2013 at 22:41

Monserrat said:
... because you are asleep when you are being operated on. I was going on about face-to-face meetings in my OP.

Not if you're having brain surgery or any form of operation under local anesthetic. Your dentist doesn't put to sleep either....

arknor · 27 Sep 2013 at 22:53

dowie said:
some urban 'yoof' wear hoodies when its not raining.... people wear sunglasses at night/indoors... Geordies don't wear coats in winter... homeless people wear NBC suits despite the lack of a chemical threat....

lies only the people going on a night out don't wear coats

Doraku · 27 Sep 2013 at 22:53

People should be allowed to do whatever they like - wear a veil, read a bible but it needs to be done in consideration, and somewhere where you are regularly serve the public you need to be especially reasonable. There definitely needs to be a distinction between personal life and work life. I wouldn't be interested in bible or quran quotes but being conscious about my own personal boundaries would be even more important.

I think many religions like Buddhism have sound advice but it doesn't mean I will live my life by it or want to always hear it. Some people need to believe in something, but others do not need that, and it is amazing that some people think it is abhorrent that others might think differently than they do!

There's too much hyperbole about this, it just makes it easy for politicians to redirect attention from more important issues. Everyone gets mixed up in this P.C. business but in the end we just need to respect each other. I've never met a doctor that openly tried to force their view on me and neither have I seen any doctor or nurse wearing a veil.

mrk · 27 Sep 2013 at 23:05

dowie said:
that's not true... its a mixture of religion and culture

That's not entirely true either.
Over time it has become what it is today, more of a fashion statement than a cultural one. On many occasions you will find the women who do wear a full veil are actually the ones with more to hide (as a character) than those that don't.

Anyway, if we're talking religion then in Islam the Quran never states that women should cover their whole bodies with a full veil or whatever else. In fact it tells both men and women to dress with modesty and does not go into any further detail, it does not give directions on exactly what to wear so indeed this is a cultural thing as mentioned and people have turned it into a religious mixed with fashion thing.

The full veils would have been worn at the time to protect women from the sandy conditions and nothing more but as with many things people wear them now for the wrong reasons and because female friend A wears one, female friend B must also wear one usually out of fear of becoming a pariah.

In my opinion wearing a full face veil as a doctor is inappropriate. A place like that is a place for a direct 1 to 1 between doctor and patient.

One to One

You cannot have a one to one discussion with someone covering everything but their eye holes.

Xordium · 27 Sep 2013 at 23:18

mrk said:
You cannot have a one to one discussion with someone covering everything but their eye holes.

You can. It happens all the time in Infectious Disease and Host Defense. The imperative thing I will stress again is that the health care professionals have an obligation to impart factual, concise and unambiguous information. Therefore, the removal of non-verbal facial cues takes nothing away. If someone is imparting or needs to impart information using non-verbal cues then they are leaving themselves open to misinterpretation.

arknor · 27 Sep 2013 at 23:20

Monserrat said:
... because you are asleep when you are being operated on. I was going on about face-to-face meetings in my OP. People may want to lip read and/or use body language (which ofc works both ways). Familiarise themselves with their doctor / nurse.

how do they know the veiled doctors are actually the person they are supposed to be anyway? surely there must be some security risk?