Talk To Me About The Toyota Celica GT-4 ST205

Wizardskills · 3 May 2013 at 21:33

A guy in my village is selling his GT-4 ST205. Its a car I have always like not least due to its rally heritage but also as it is a bit of an underdog in the mid 90's Jap cars.

He doesn't want too much for it as it is has 130k on the clock and is a little rough around the edges (dent on one of the front wings and a couple of scratches etc...) but according to his advert it is mechanically sound. It wouldn't be used as my everyday car but more as a weekend/track car that I could have some fun in without really worrying about if it broke. I know a few forum members have owned these and I'm just looking for some advice on what to look out for. I know that they are reliable for the most part and that the front suspension is the weak area with the "8-links" but is there anything else to know of? There is no mention on his ad if the clutch has been changed (I'm guess it has) but would this be a huge job with it being 4WD?

Any input would be appreciated.

ChocolateStarfishRammer · 3 May 2013 at 21:36

Guy I use to work with had one of these and put a few grand under the bonnet tuning the thing up with stupid boost.

It would snap your neck in half when going from 0-60.

For that respect only.. Buy it.

Oh.. and it could shoot flames from the exhaust. Win.

Rybo89 · 3 May 2013 at 21:52

Awesome looking cars.

That is all i can add to this thread though unfortunately.

DGBVIPER · 3 May 2013 at 22:06

Hmm, where to start

After 2 and a bit years ownership I am not sure I would recommend them unless it had piles of receipts for everything specifically important on the car such as the stupidly expensive front superstrut suspension system with the figure 8's, control arm and banana arms

Clutch is a right pain, generally easier to drop the engine down for it, very awkward in-situ

Garages will not touch the car as it's complex, nothing is just easy to do on it, and they don't understand how certain things work. (There are specialists dotted around, but travelling to have work done can be a pain, however as your weekend/track toy this is less of an issue)

The engine is a very good balance between power and reliability, they do not last well once the boost has been turned up and fuel cut isn't that far a distance from standard boost anyway. Reliably on a stock block, 300-320bhp is probably the limit before you go down expensive engine forging etc.

I shall edit this later once I have found the posts I have made previously on the ST205, it is an incredibly capable car, and silly fast and grippy for the little money it costs to buy these days due to an old turbo petrol car being generally avoided.

Can I ask what his price is? Also again due to the expensive nature of parts etc I would only buy owners club cars as you can trace back the work done generally.
Also is it an import or UK standard car? (UK car has headlight washers) I ask because UK cars are nearly 20 years old so rust can be pretty bad, Imports the same if it was an early import however these should have been undersealed upon entry to the country, if early import has undersealing been redone?)

Any questions do ask!

The Running Man · 3 May 2013 at 22:13

Nice cars as above watch for suspension issues. Check when cambelt was done and think about 3-5k oil changes and sub 20mpg in mildly boosty situations. Check for smoke on startup, at idle and make sure the turbo pulls hard to 6-7k rpm. Tuning with a boost controller with standard intake/exhaust is possible.

Wizardskills · 3 May 2013 at 22:49

DGBVIPER said:
Hmm, where to start

After 2 and a bit years ownership I am not sure I would recommend them unless it had piles of receipts for everything specifically important on the car such as the stupidly expensive front superstrut suspension system with the figure 8's, control arm and banana arms

Clutch is a right pain, generally easier to drop the engine down for it, very awkward in-situ

Garages will not touch the car as it's complex, nothing is just easy to do on it, and they don't understand how certain things work. (There are specialists dotted around, but travelling to have work done can be a pain, however as your weekend/track toy this is less of an issue)

The engine is a very good balance between power and reliability, they do not last well once the boost has been turned up and fuel cut isn't that far a distance from standard boost anyway. Reliably on a stock block, 300-320bhp is probably the limit before you go down expensive engine forging etc.

I shall edit this later once I have found the posts I have made previously on the ST205, it is an incredibly capable car, and silly fast and grippy for the little money it costs to buy these days due to an old turbo petrol car being generally avoided.

Can I ask what his price is? Also again due to the expensive nature of parts etc I would only buy owners club cars as you can trace back the work done generally.
Also is it an import or UK standard car? (UK car has headlight washers) I ask because UK cars are nearly 20 years old so rust can be pretty bad, Imports the same if it was an early import however these should have been undersealed upon entry to the country, if early import has undersealing been redone?)

Any questions do ask!

The Running Man said:
Nice cars as above watch for suspension issues. Check when cambelt was done and think about 3-5k oil changes and sub 20mpg in mildly boosty situations. Check for smoke on startup, at idle and make sure the turbo pulls hard to 6-7k rpm. Tuning with a boost controller with standard intake/exhaust is possible.

Thanks for the info guys!

The car is a UK one in Storm Blue and is up for £2k. It has the following mods done to it:

Blitz SUS Induction Kit
HKS Turbo Timer
Blitz Nur Spec Stainless Steel Exhaust System with removable baffle
Blitz Super Sound Dump Valve
Autowatch 161RL Insurance Approved Alarm Autowatch 171 PPi Thatcham Cat 2 Immobiliser
Various Samco Sport Hoses
Manual Boost Controller

It also has some after-market alloys on it as well.

The guy reckons it is running around 280Bhp although he hasn't had it dynoed. So the boost will have been increased. Cambelt has been done twice at 66k and 108k respectfully and it looks like it has been serviced every year up to 2009. Nothing is mentioned on the ad for after this date however.

Edit:

May as well post the advert

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330913024084?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

The Running Man · 3 May 2013 at 23:05

I wouldn't buy it from an advert online you need to test driven it and check for rust on sills, arches etc. It will be expensive to fix anything and everything on the car despite the initial low price.

DGBVIPER · 3 May 2013 at 23:06

Well for a start it's one of the nicer colours imo once polished up.
The price is basically the average for the ST205 at the moment and there are some really well looked after examples on the owners club not that much more expensive with receipts. Roughly 2.5k onward.

My main concerns are that there is no mention about suspension work nor clutch which are probably the 2 most expensive jobs on the gt4. Do you know what the MBC is set to boost wise? I'd not buy a car that has been ran on the limit every day of it's life (1.2bar is the limit for fuel cut)
With the mods i'd estimate 270-280bhp certainly not 300 with the old turbo on it and things.

Instead of writing screeds you'd be better off heading to the owners club and downloading the buyer's guide there are all sorts of little checks you can do:
I'd want a compression test done prior to sale due to the age of the car, mileage, and unknown boost levels, Cylinder 3 is prone to losing psi first, signs the engine is on it's way out.
Remove the intake hose that goes to the turbo and check for oil pooling in the intake hose itself or around the outside of the turbo, signs of wear and seals going due to age.
Once car is warm, remove dipstick and rev to check for any smoke out of the dipstick, this signals ringland failure.
Other usual car checks, rust as I mentioned above, smoke elsewhere.

Obviously as you're using it less it probably won't get the continued wear mines does as a daily commuter car and more recently trackday car, but they are certainly not cheap to repair when they do go wrong and that is my concern with the big bills not having been done! Even discs and pads etc add up, and a lot of ebay adds that look cheaper stating compatible with ST205 end up being the wrong size and only fit for the ST202 the n/a fwd model.

Also, don't mean to rain on your parade haha I'm a super pessimist!

adam cool dude · 4 May 2013 at 03:01

I bought one in December last year. It was a big risk as it was a ebay add but it had 56,000 miles. Little in terms of history being a import from 2008 but the main things were done and I followed the guide from the GT4OC and everything was okay bar a few minor cosmetic niggles. I would advise against buying one of these as your sole car especially if you need a car for work etc. I would also advise against buying one of these unless your handy with a set of spanners too as it will get pricey otherwise.

Servicing wise it is not too bad for a performance car. Caliper rebuild kits, discs and pads for all 4 corners set me back £500 from a specialist supplier of genuine Toyota parts. Changing spark plugs is a little awkward as you have to drain and remove the charge cooler to access them and fully synthetic oil is a must for these engines.

I have done 3000 miles in mine since I bought it and brings a smile to my face every time and surprises a lot of people on the road with its grip and power.

Uneducated armchair experts will say these are fat and lazy cars. This is simply gospel from people who have driven cars with worn out super strut suspension or herd stories from people that have. A Celica with a good bill of health is a match for any 4WD car of that era.

NathWraith · 4 May 2013 at 10:43

I would imagine most people would choose and impreza over a gt4.

It's a shame the engine doesn't tune higher without forging.

I had a "run" with a GT4 in my Supra, absolutely pasted it and he was running 330BHP apparently.

rjk · 4 May 2013 at 10:48

NathWraith said:
I had a "run" with a GT4 in my Supra, absolutely pasted it and he was running 330BHP apparently.

NathWraith said:
Ask any racer, any real racer. It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile; winning's winning.

DGBVIPER · 4 May 2013 at 11:16

NathWraith said:
I would imagine most people would choose and impreza over a gt4.

It's a shame the engine doesn't tune higher without forging.

I had a "run" with a GT4 in my Supra, absolutely pasted it and he was running 330BHP apparently.

Indeed, with the Scooby (And Evo) there are plenty around which also makes for cheaper parts, more second hand goodies for sale etc. However I wanted something a bit rarer, not well known, and the fact it was the car I played on Sega Rally when I was a child!

The engine not tuning much before forging is it's biggest drawback sadly, but 300bhp isn't too bad for a car that costs £1500-2500 average

330bhp is really pushing it I think power wise, I'm an enternal worrier about the engine.

NathWraith · 4 May 2013 at 11:43

rjkoneill said:

Wizardskills · 4 May 2013 at 15:23

Thanks for all the advice guys. I have downloaded the buyers guide from the GT4OC website so I'll have a read of that as well.

I think I will go take a look at it as it is only 3 mins down the road from me. Maybe put in a low offer to see if they bite as I don't think it will sell on ebay this time round.

DGBVIPER · 4 May 2013 at 15:44

Sounds good man, mind and do the checks I noted above also as I don't recall them being in the buyer's guide!

adam cool dude · 4 May 2013 at 21:46

NathWraith said:
I would imagine most people would choose and impreza over a gt4.

It's a shame the engine doesn't tune higher without forging.

I had a "run" with a GT4 in my Supra, absolutely pasted it and he was running 330BHP apparently.

Please tell me a 4 cylinder engine from that era that doesn't need forged internals to make 350-400bhp and be reliable?

This isn't need for speed.

Zuban · 5 May 2013 at 10:50

The st205 gets a lot of bad rep due to the older st185 but its a far better car, its still got a softer edge than the equivalents though I think. At the time of launch its contemporary's would have been the evo II and the classic impreza which had only been out less than two years, its a shame it was never developed like the other two, guess the rally program saw to that!.

Had mine a couple years now and known in a lot longer and its been a reliable car but expensive to maintain, personally have never had a problem getting parts for the car or getting a garage to work on it, they were sold in the uk aswell. The front suspension is very expensive but is one of the best things about the car imo, as I understand it, it mimics double wishbone and moves the steering axis, I had this on my st202 track car and with coilovers the steering and front end grip was amazing.

adam cool dude · 5 May 2013 at 13:14

Zuban said:
The front suspension is very expensive but is one of the best things about the car imo, as I understand it, it mimics double wishbone and moves the steering axis, I had this on my st202 track car and with coilovers the steering and front end grip was amazing.

It only took Ford and Vauxhall 15 years to copy it and claim it as revolutionary

.

ubersonic · 6 May 2013 at 18:29

The ST205 is a lovely car and very underrated, its a pity that because it doesn't have the WRC pedigree of the ST185/Impreza/Evo it never seems to get talked about in the same circles but for prospective buyers I suppose that's a mixed blessing as this is reflected in the value. Its Toyota's own fault really as if they hadn't got caught running illegal mods on it in the '95 WRC and got ejected plus banned from the '96 WRC then who knows what the car could have achieved

Tom_ed1987 · 6 May 2013 at 19:33

adam cool dude said:
I would advise against buying one of these as your sole car especially if you need a car for work etc.

I would have to disagree with that. Had my ST205 for 6 months/6k miles now and I think it's a superb every day kind of car. I don't think it feels special enough to be a weekend runabout (especially when compared to my old MR2 turbo); It's a bit heavy and ungainly for that. It feels exceptionally planted, is easy to drive at speed, the suspension is nice and supple and the steering is superb although turning circle is a bit large. Nice and quiet too.

I think the problem is expecting them to be savage rally refugee weekend weapons. They are far more suited at being fast comfortable practical GT cars with a bit of turbo fun imo.

Here's a young clarkson comparing one against an Escort Cosworth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm2txziUpGU