The big RPG problem.

[Teki187]

So I've been playing a lot of RPGS recently, there my favourite genre and I'm passionate about it.

Anyway, I'm currently working my way through the witcher enhanced and it hit me, why are RPGS always always missing the mark.

Take oblivion for example, alright graphics, free open world and good first person combat style. It was only let down by bad programing, bad leveling and bad story.

Lets now take its follow up, Fallout 3, that improved graphics, AI and the questing system but it still lacked horribly in the leveling, the quests and shortness of the main story.

So lets look back and see what did things right.

Well Baulders gate is a good start. Great long story, great graphics for the time, lots of characters and a leveling system that worked. This was only really hindered by what i feel is a "difficult" to understand D&D rule set.

So what has gone wrong? Why are we left with the "left over" bits of the RPG genre? Why do so many RPG games have such great potential for them to be squashed? What is the major failing point of them?

 

[Teki187]

What's wrong with Fallout 3's levelling?

Its too short, to simple, you don't feel like leveling adds anything to your character.

 

[Teki187]

Saying oblivion and fallout 3 had a bad story is down to opinion. I liked the story especially with a lot of it's side-quests story lines. On both games.

The story in oblivion is ok, its just too short. Remove the side quests and you only have about 6 hours of gameplay. Same with fallout 3.

 

[Teki187]

Personaly i thought the leveling system was fine. Because you can reach max level before doing everything, it encouraged me to not try and do everything in one go, and instead create a new character that does things differently, and explores places i havn't gone to before.

But thats the problem, is the leveling system fine were you dont have much involvement in it, or should we be more involved? Is reaching the max level before getting half way through the main quest good level pacing?

 

[Teki187]

This is all down to how you play the game. If you do quest after quest, following it exactly then of course the game wont last long. One of the main advantages to oblivion and fallout 3 is how open it is. There were times when i had a quest to go from A to B, and along the way i spent hours exploring when i could have got to B in under 10 min if i focused on that.

I suppose your right, but in the case of oblivion and the leveling aspect of dungeons you pretty much knew what to expect in them, so they were not really exciting. Soon as you exit the training dungeon, go straight ahead to your first aield ruin and from then on you can guess what will always be in them ruins/dungeon.

We really need to see a RPG effectively use physics and the modern tech that most games use now. Examples blocking doors with rocks, chairs, tables etc.

 

[Teki187]

NWN2 improved with FPS style collision detection?

But how long had CD been in previous games for RPGS to take it on? Its like the genre is always playing catch up.

Another good example is The Witcher.

Sadly i have no desire at all to play it. I'm on chapter 3 and I've just read that up until chapter 5 you don't go to any new places outside the castle.

How can you base half a game confined to a castle?

 

[Teki187]

Well, The Witcher Enhanced Edition is one of the most enjoyable games I've played

The castle also has 2 distinct sections, not including the old town and the 2 other areas you will spend time in.

I need to start playing the extra content that came with my game!

But your spending the entire game in the castle!?

Thats not story telling or playing a RPG.

What happened to moving across a massive map with varied environments and monsters of different types and species?

 

[Teki187]

Because it has a really good storyline?

I honestly didn't think i'd like this game due to the combat system but it's just so engrossing

But your saying playing a game inside a box is great as long as it has a good story line?

How on earth can that be enjoyable?

 

[Teki187]

you need to play lineage 2 (online) tbh... then you will NEVER complain about any other rpg/mmorpg's lvling system lol

ags

But its finding a balance between long life and short term fun.

Perhaps games should come with 2 options, casual and hardcore.

With differing aspects of the game.

I.e. Casuals get a more stream lined, simple and shorter game and hardcores get more complex, open world, longer game?

 

[Teki187]

what does an open world have to do with if the game is aimed at hardcore or casual gamers?

Because as soon as you include a open world like oblivion/fallout 3 for RPGS, you instantly assume there will be a fast travel option. Which shouldn't be included at all.

Horses were included in oblivion but with very little point, i started the game saying "i wont use fast travel" but shortly after when i realised it took me 30mins to get from one side to the other i thought sod it and used the fast travel, if the system wasn't there i'd actually have to use my horse.

RPGS are meant to be EPIC on scale, not completed in 6 hours.

That game hit the nail on the head for me, unsupassed to this day for it's atmosphere and levelling system.

Sadly i never managed to get into Morrowind, possibly because at the time i couldn't run the game in full glory and when i could, it was too dated to enjoy.

Strangely the fogging and limited view distance helped Morrowing immensely, In Oblivion it seemed like you could travel for ages, turn around and almost always see the capital city.

I can agree with you to a certain degree on that aspect, but the fogging was an excuse to reduce draw distance and i think having the ability to see everything in the "open world" at once is a good thing, it just needs to be tuned better.

 

[Teki187]

Dragon Age and a certain german RPG (the name of which escapes me as im at work but i downloaded the german demo on) are my hopes for the PC rpg market.

Improvements to BG2? Easy - the loading system. Much prefer the no loading and seamless world of Arcanum for that aspect.

I think a first person, skill based BG2 with modern graphics would completely rip apart the RPG industy.

 

[Teki187]

Perhaps you are misinterpreting what they mean by Castle.

It's an entire city based within castle walls. Within that there is the Temple Quarter and the Trade Quarter, along with Old Vizima and a big Swamp map.

Sewers, Cemeteries, various caves and crypts, and and entire section of the game taking place quite a distance from Vizima.

The game is bigger than you think!

Sure, it's not free-roaming like Oblivion/Fallout 3, but then it was never designed to be, and it's linearity is not as constricted as you think.

One of the most satisfying games I have ever played.

But its just one location!? Oblivion had 1 castle, with the same amount of quarters, but had the outside world.

This game feels like i'm trapped inside the castle and the outside world doesn't exist.

Where are the other towns, castles, camps, other environments?

I thought the witcher was based on a polish book, so that entire book is based in a castle?

 

[Teki187]

Bethesda intended for the community to add to Oblivion (and indeed Morrowind for that matter). It's the reason why they provided tools to do exactly that.

If you think the point of Oblivion was just to focus the main story and you didn't tinker with any of the community built mods available, and were unhappy as a result, then I'll take this opportunity to remind you that you still owe me £50 for the laminated osprey housing I built at the foot of your pond.

But some people have questioned whether or not Bethesda released the game half finished and expected the modding community to "finish" the job.

 

[Teki187]

I didn;t mention the mob scaling, i just said i though the way in which you leveled was fantastic.

No one is disputing the skill based leveling system, thats probably the single best way to level in a RPG.

Its more the fact that it took like 2 hours in fallout 3 to hit max level, oblivion had a soft level cap which was very easy to reach in around 8 hours game play and so follows the trend.

 

[Teki187]

What do you expect if you rush through like that? I had played fallout 3 for a good 40 hours before i reached the max level because i took the game easy and explore, found stuff out for myself rather then just doing quest after quest.

I did exactly the same as you, apart from i'm what they call a hardcore gamer. Meaning i spend a lot of time playing a game. Rather then 2-4 hours in between home work.

 

[Teki187]

LOL, dont assume you know how often i play. That 40 hours of fallout 3 playtime was in the first 5 or so days of release. Yes i could have got max level much sooner if i wanter to, but why would i want to do that? Rushing to the max level is not the point of the game. I spent my time enjoying the game instead of rushing it, and so i have no problems with the leveling system.

I just think its silly that the developers give you a massive world to explore to enjoy, and you rush through it as fast as you can then complain it was too short.

But now who is assuming? Your saying i rushed, yet i just explained i did the same as you did. So are you admitting your rushed the game?

Regardless i'd spend like 8am till 1-2am playing the game for about 4-5 days straight.

 

[Teki187]

So if you say you played it the same as i did and just took it easy while playing. Whats the problem? I would say 40 hours to max level is a decent ammount. Most games these days usualy have no more then 24 hours of content.

Well i'm guessing i couldn't have been exactly like you then, since it didn't take me long at all to reach max level. After finishing the wasteland survival guide and some random locations (barns, bandit camps etc) i was already level 14.

The leveling as already stated by a lot of people on this forum in other threads and all over the internet is far to short.

 

[Teki187]

I received the quest from the Ghoul in the Underground to go retrieve a key off him. Cool. I an action I'd taken had a permanent effect on the game world!

That would be fine, if the NPCS actually responded to what went on.

I did the same thing but the NPCS still told me he was alive and telling me to go there.