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Things that drive me nuts about OpenGL

LtMatt

LtMatt

LtMatt

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Rich Geldreich's Blog - Game and open source developer, graphics programmer, lossless data and texture compression specialist

Here's a brain dump of the things that sometimes drive me crazy about OpenGL. (Note these are strictly my own opinions, not those of Valve or my coworkers. I'm also in a ranty-type mood today after grappling with OpenGL for several years now..) My major motivation to posting this: the GL API needs a reboot because IMO Mantle/D3D12 are going to most likely eat it for lunch soon, so we should start talking and thinking about this stuff now.
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AScGfzo.jpg


Source
http://richg42.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/things-that-drive-me-nuts-about-opengl.html
https://twitter.com/aras_p/status/465882281035313153



Why we can’t have nice things: Valve programmer discusses wretched state of OpenGL

Joel Hruska's take on the blog. :)

Let’s be clear — nobody “wins” this comparison. You’ve got one vendor deeply hostile to open source code and actively disinterested in contributing code that might help any other vendor, one vendor with good intentions, bad code, and limited resources, and one vendor for whom GL development is a strictly secondary interest. This explains in no small part why OpenGL continues to be so fragmented and erratic in the PC space — it’s extremely difficult for even a company with Valve’s resources to chase down three separate vendor drivers and integrate solutions that satisfy all three companies. Doing something that works on one Vendor’s hardware could easily break two others, which means implementing and testing three separate solutions.

The chances that this situation improves in the near term seem dim at best. One point that multiple commenters made on Geldereich’s blog is that if the desktop space is bad, the smartphone and tablet vendors are even worse. Meanwhile, one of the vendors discussed here has already launched its own new API, which likely reduces their interest in developing OpenGL support in parallel. That’s not automatically a bad thing, but it means fewer resources to devote to any single API — and the other vendors have obvious problems of their own.
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Full Article
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/1...programmer-discusses-wretched-state-of-opengl
 
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I forget which talk it was that Carmack was giving, around the anniversary of openGL at some event iirc. He said he was proud of it but it's got huge problems. They apparently had a chance(I have no idea what this means but, a vote to start from scratch that failed or a big change in gpu's that meant he felt they had the chance to make a change and ignored it?) to start fresh with a new version with all the legacy stuff removed.

A huge entity in Khronos with FAR too many interested parties and code that goes back over a decade... there is a reason people are embracing Mantle, it's new. It's writen with dev's input and wishes taken in to account. It doesn't use decade old code as a base for it.

People often ignore though I try to point it out, Mantle was built with significant and strong tools built in, it's easier to debug and follow code as it's being executed, it was designed and written with these kinds of tools in mind.

You can do amazing things still with crazy old(or new) programming languages, any kinds of programs. Just because you CAN do something in openGL doesn't mean you want to or it's the best way to do so.

I don't know any dev's, and have never seen anyone including Carmack who doesn't have serious problems with openGL in general, with the Khronos group, with the number of extensions and ridiculous crap built on crap nature of it. It's a pain to debug, the tools aren't great, they have no intention of making a low level version(as it stands).
Yes you CAN put in loads of extra work and code to work around multiple problems.... but you could also just have an API where you put all that extra work from dev's into new and better features. Very rarely is loads of work arounds and extensions going to end up faster or better than if it simply worked right in the first place.

That is one of the things people should worry about with DX12. AMD made Mantle from the ground up, fresh code, clean code and with great tools built in. DX12 could take a lot of old code and use old tools patched to work differently. It is MS's general thing, they very rarely just get rid of legacy stuff and that is one of the issues with a company that needs wide support.

While legacy support(in hardware as well as software) can be very important, it also often holds everyone back significantly.

Sometimes, particularly with something like an API, starting fresh HAS to happen now and then. Graphics cards are nothing like the cards from DX9 era, yet there is loads of legacy code from old api's based around entirely different architectures, lots of bad ideas, old bugs, bad documentation and a slow and overbearing Khronos group that slows down development on the openGL side.

openGL currently doesn't seem to have particularly good plans moving in to the future, seem to be saying no to low level and saying "loads of extensions and extra work mean you can get around some of the problems we have compared to DX12/Mantle" isn't encouraging. But I wouldn't be surprised if they end up trying to make a new version in a couple years at most when Mantle/Dx12 proves to be significantly better.

I think Mantle moving to linux and probably android in particular for mobile chips in the near future will cause Khronos to be forced in to reacting.
 
So, they want ogl to be better or even rebuilt completely yet don't in any way shape or form want to contribute to it? Ladies and gentlemen say hello to today's lazy developers :)
 
A good work man never blames his tools.

It's pretty prehistoric mind you. It's a non profit organisation though, you can't moan about something not getting done when you're one of the sole contributors. That's like taking a huge number 2 and not wanting to wipe your arse as you've simply not got the time
 
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OpenGl is dead, its a shame cause it works on linux and I really want gaming to take off on it so I can ditch MS completely.

Im really hoping Mantle source gets released nvidia throw some driver time into it and someone big like canonical assimilate it into linux scrapping opengl completely, somehow make it backwards compatible allowing older games to push dx calls to it and all my dreams will come true

Sadly it is a dream as it stands and microsoft will never allow it
 
LtMatt said:
Rich Geldreich's Blog - Game and open source developer, graphics programmer, lossless data and texture compression specialist



AScGfzo.jpg
Source
http://richg42.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/things-that-drive-me-nuts-about-opengl.html
https://twitter.com/aras_p/status/465882281035313153
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Open Source, also known as 'Twinkie code' Twinkie in the right hand, coding with the left hand.

I sometimes work with Word Press, i spend more time fixing broken or messy code than i do being productive with it.

I have a friend in the US who i Skype with while we are working, he is a software coder, a very very good one, sometime he also needs to use Open Source, he rants like a lunatic at the state of it all.

I'm not surprised to see Game Developers also frustrated with it.
 
stuie said:
OpenGl is dead, its a shame cause it works on linux and I really want gaming to take off on it so I can ditch MS completely.

Im really hoping Mantle source gets released nvidia throw some driver time into it and someone big like canonical assimilate it into linux scrapping opengl completely, somehow make it backwards compatible allowing older games to push dx calls to it and all my dreams will come true

Sadly it is a dream as it stands and microsoft will never allow it
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From what I've seen DX12 will offer a lot of the same tools as Mantle with regards to low level support, access to memory paging and so forth. So people shouldn't be so quick to discredit it. It's nearly written from scratch in some areas.
 
MjFrosty said:
From what I've seen DX12 will offer a lot of the same tools as Mantle with regards to low level support, access to memory paging and so forth. So people shouldn't be so quick to discredit it. It's nearly written from scratch in some areas.
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Im not, id just like to be able to use linux as my main os, something I cant cause I game, DX has without a doubt come a long way and has made gaming what it is, I just wish microsoft would open it to allow its use (not the wine equivalent) on linux platforms
 
stuie said:
OpenGl is dead, its a shame cause it works on linux and I really want gaming to take off on it so I can ditch MS completely.

Im really hoping Mantle source gets released nvidia throw some driver time into it and someone big like canonical assimilate it into linux scrapping opengl completely, somehow make it backwards compatible allowing older games to push dx calls to it and all my dreams will come true

Sadly it is a dream as it stands and microsoft will never allow it
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After a few years of this supposed "dream scenario" happening one would quickly realise that it is a bad model, a single GPU company with a very limited budget, a history of sloppy implementations and a vested interest in pushing further sales of consoles in control of the graphics API market would be a disaster for PC gaming.

I hope that the graphical API situation remains as it is except for a little more investment by Microsoft, what I really do not want to happen is a fragmented API market where the actual company that makes the main operating system has no input. The reality is that if Mantle took over (it almost certainly won't thankfully) then any sort of implementation to try to make it work on Nvidia GPUs (remember Mantle is coded specifically for the GCN architecture as t is) would be horrendous at best, disastrous at worst - this could only lead to one thing, AMD being the dominant player in the PC gaming graphics industry which would very quickly lead to stagnation.
 
PhysicsMan94 said:
After a few years of this supposed "dream scenario" happening one would quickly realise that it is a bad model, a single GPU company with a very limited budget, a history of sloppy implementations and a vested interest in pushing further sales of consoles in control of the graphics API market would be a disaster for PC gaming.

I hope that the graphical API situation remains as it is except for a little more investment by Microsoft, what I really do not want to happen is a fragmented API market where the actual company that makes the main operating system has no input. The reality is that if Mantle took over (it almost certainly won't thankfully) then any sort of implementation to try to make it work on Nvidia GPUs (remember Mantle is coded specifically for the GCN architecture as t is) would be horrendous at best, disastrous at worst - this could only lead to one thing, AMD being the dominant player in the PC gaming graphics industry which would very quickly lead to stagnation.
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Spot on.

People get too wrapped up on their choice of vendor but fail to see that a single player would be to the detriment of the PC enthusiast. No competition would result in lazy development. Drip fed on each new gen and max profit being the only goal.

As much as I favour nVidia, we still need there to be competition from AMD or even a 3rd player for a healthy market.
 
stuie said:
Im not, id just like to be able to use linux as my main os, something I cant cause I game, DX has without a doubt come a long way and has made gaming what it is, I just wish microsoft would open it to allow its use (not the wine equivalent) on linux platforms
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Valve have already released a DX to ogl translation SDK for source engine games and are said to be developing a more generic SDK for DX to ogl porting, all ogl needs now is an over haul to bring it up to scratch.

I want to believe it will happen, even if it means valve taking the reigns in pushing it forward.
 
Linux should be the gaming OS, I can't stand the thought of being locked into M$ with a sub.

Whatever it takes for that to happen, let's just do it!
 
OpenGL is dead now? Oh I guess the new Unreal 4 engine, Cryengine and others with OpenGL support for everything are all dead or useless now. :eek:

Never mind that the new Unreal Tournament is Windows, OSX, and Linux only. I guess 2 our of 3 using OpenGL = dead. :( :(
 
Gregster said:
http://forums.midlifegamers.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=549

It is only rumours but that wouldn't surprise me with MS.
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[RUMOR] First of all, notice the rumor tag. Noticed? Okay good. This particular leak comes from a known Microsoft leaker Faikee (via myce.com ) from a source we have not used before, so take it with a pinch of salt. What the leak basically states is a highly integrated (into the cloud) and unified Windows among the PC and Mobile platforms. The impacts of that on household usage and gaming are of course very significant, while the impact on the server market almost negligible.
Windows 365 – A ‘Windows As A Service Subscription’ Model and Window 9 Moving towards an Integrated Desktop – Mobile Platform
Faikee
Alleged ‘Windows 365 ‘ Screenshot.

0afdc16473ef591554c6ffa398bda1da.jpg


One of Microsoft’s foremost motivation for moving towards an integrated OS is Gaming. More specifically the ultimate operating system, one that will carry forward your work/entertainment flow from one device to another. Microsoft wants a future where you can have a unified environment in your home to which all Windows devices are connected. Now we already knew Microsoft is working on Windows 9 but this leak, if true proves the existence of either of two things, one more likely than the other. Likely: A new Windows 365 ‘Windows as a Service Subscription Model’ or unlikely: Windows 9 havening subscription model features. I am only mentioning the later just in case because if this leak is correct than this is definitely a new Windows 365. Rather like the Office 365 which consisted of a paid subscription model too.
Now notice the “Windows 9 Server and Mobile Edition”. That coupled with Microsoft’s recent attempts to make the Xbox One more unified, signal a very very integrated Windows Experience. Needless to say, we are not entirely sure how the ‘server’ part fits in because servers are highly task specific and do not require or even need a subscription model. Maybe Microsoft is attempting to bring a Business Process Redesign. Maybe.However if true, it does confirm that Microsoft is working on Office 2015 along with the Mobile version of Windows 9 (the desktop version of Windows 9 has already leaked out before.)
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Ah Crap no!

This Looks your PC is simply a gateway to everything you own stored remotely with access to your digital property and your virtual Desktop is via a repeating paid subscription.

Kill me now....
 
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Currently I haven't tried SteamOS and haven't tried linux in years. But if Windows goes subscription in the future AND as we already know, MS makes the next versions of DX Win 9 exclusive then I'll seriously be considering a dual boot Windows 8.1 for older games and SteamOS for future games setup. This will depend heavily on the promised big AAA support for SteamOS that they've been promising. If SteamOS over the next year gets support for say 5/10 AAA games then it's a good sign people are willing to support it, if it's higher than that, even better. As long as the majority of new games supported it I could switch to that and have Windows 8.1 installed somewhere for if I want to fire it up and play an older game with no support.
 
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