TV v Projector Dilemma

[Abyss]

Hi all,

It's been a while since I've posted in here but as life took over my home cinema hobby and I've become somewhat of a lurker.

I am at the point of either upgrading the living room TV or projector and would appreciate your advice.

Current setup:

• Projector - Optoma HD200x (served us very well, but was about £1k new from memory so not a high spec projector)
  
• Screen - Optoma electric screen (can't remember the exact model, circa 120")
• TV - Hisense 65" - Can't remember the exact model but it's 2 years old and was around £700
  
• Audio - Sony STRDN1010 AV amp, with 7 Mordaunt Short speakers and 1 BK Monolith sub
• Viewing distance is circa 4m

Main usage is:

• Netflix / Amazon series such as Agents of Shield 4 to 5 evenings per week
• Films 2-3 evenings a month
• Gaming 2-3 evenings a month

The main things on my mind are

• We used to use the projector in the last house a lot, but in the new one it gets used less due to more natural light and the projector brightness dropping. The plan is to redecorate the room a lot darker, better control ambient / artificial light sources and properly box the projector screen into the ceiling
• Whenever I game ( I end up moving the sofa to right in front of the TV and using the 65". I mainly play GTA and night time scenes are difficult to see enough detail, even in a pitch black room
• The 65" was a fairly budget purchase (about £700 from memory). I've been pleased with it but it does suffer from below average black levels and an uneven light distribution on dark scenes
• Whatever route I go the living room is getting overhauled. We use the open-plan living/dining/family area day to day so 80% of the livingroom usage is for watching TV/films or gaming.

The three routes I am considering are

• Replace the projector with something higher spec. Potentially the Epson 7400 at £1,900, or the 9400 at £2,400. Keep the TV and use it for daytime playing of Peppa Pig
• Keep the projector and upgrade the TV. I'd want to go circa 84" so it'd still need to be a lower spec panel for circa £2k. I did consider 75" but drew it on the wall and it's not enough bigger sitting 4m away to be worth the cost
• Stick with what I've got for a couple more years and wait for 85" panels to drop. Eventually sell the projector/screen and replace it with a big TV only

I don't have a fixed budget as such, but don't want to go as far as replacing both the TV and projector. I was aiming to redo the living room for around £5k but was aiming to replace the sofa and get paint/coving/accesories within this.

What would Overclockers do? Appreciate any advice you can offer.

I'll post some photos of the room in question shortly.

 

[Abyss]

Photos of the current room below. Still very much a work in progress.





Intention is to paint the room a lot darker (including the ceiling). Also ignore the positions of the rear speakers, they are wall mounted for 5.1 but the intention is to move them to the side and position the floorstanders in the corner for 7.1

 

[Abyss]

For me nothing has the impact like a decent projector for watching a movie - even similar sized TVs to the projected image - but I really struggle with the convenience side of it - more often than not I don't use the projector - so I'd put the money on a decent TV personally - even an older projector can give a very decent experience.

Cheers. I'm comfortable from a convenience point of view, it's all setup on the Harmony remote so the difference between using the TV and projector is just pressing a different button. The curtains are also very rarely opened in the living room. I do however need to get the lighting set up so am going to get round to finally fitting lightwaveRF in there.

Given your point about older projectors do you think it might be worth just keeping the one I've got? It's probably circa 8 years old so I assumed things would have moved on a lot since the early DLPs.

 

[Abyss]

Projectors really need expensive equipment or a dedicated room to really shine.

A decent TV will always outperform it other than size.

Also hisense TV's are an absolute joke in this country we don't get access to the high end panels that America does for some reason.

Personally the amount of money you spent last time around was circa £2k.

That today would get you a high end 75 inch FALD lcd.

Unless you are living in a mansion that size of TV should be enough.

I'd love a projector but the cost and compromise needed to do it right just isn't worth it when you can sit closer and get a massive TV these days for even a grand which will outperform most projectors costing 2-3 times as much.

If I was going to get a projector nothing other than a complete custom built cinema room would be good enough personally for me.

Which means that I'd rather just get a TV and be done with it

Thanks. That's part of the dilemma I think. It's ultimately a living room that is almost entirely used for TV/films and is rapidly heading towards becoming a semi-dedicated room (certainly from a layout, lighting control and wall colour point of view).

It's definitely tempting to go for a 75" tv. I just worry it felt too small when I marked it out on tape (as per the image), but it seems the sweet spot for value and £2k gets a very nice TV.

I also wonder, if I do go the TV route how much darker paint and a new bulb will help the current projector.

 

[Abyss]

If you can go the dedicated room.route and customise the room around a projector to suit it fully then go for it.

Otherwise a half hearted attempt just ends up being compromised in so many ways a TV is better.

I've thought about it many a time. I could even convert the garage to do it but I'd rather be able to use the space for a more casual experience tbh.

Cheers. What else do you think I should be doing to make the room more dedicated? Current plan is darker walls/ceiling, box in the screen, chase in the speaker cabling and change the sofas to something more suitable.

There might be an option that allows you to have your cake and eat it too.

Put yourself back in time to the point when you were looking at the Optoma HD200X. If you'd have had three or four times the budget then you might have considered the JVC DLA X3 at the time. The performance gap between the two projectors was huge. As good as the HD200X is, it's mainly a gaming and entertainment projector. This means it's tuned more for brightness rather than picture fidelity and black level. The 3-chip DiLA JVC was designed to get the best from movies. The native contrast ratio was much bigger, and that meant the blacks went much deeper and it made the whites pop that much more.

The issue with dedicated home cinema projectors though at that point in time was they sacrificed some brightness in order to help get those deep blacks. In a dark room that really didn't matter so much. But when used in a room with light walls and some ambient light then the image lacked the impact of the brighter gaming machines even if the colours and the video processing were better. The JVC X3 was one of the projectors I recall that bucked that trend. It was still bright enough to go toe-to-toe with the gaming machines for TV and entertainment duties.

The X3 was superseded by the X30 and then the x35. This was the last of the native 1080p DiLA machines before JVC introduced e-Shift pseudo-4K in to its entry-level range with the DLA-X500.

Good X35s are changing hands for around £600-£700 on AVForums classifieds. Something like this would be a significant step up in your projection system and leave you with more funds for a bigger and better TV and room decor. IMO it would be impossible to beat the picture performance of this with any of the new pseudo-UHD projectors under £1500 despite their resolution advantages. My view is that they're all a bit hamstrung by the cost of the pixel-shifting tech which then makes them compromised in lens quality, contrast ration and video processing.

Entry-level true native 4K 3-chip projectors are still relatively expensive. The Sony VPL-VW270 is £5K. The Epsons are good, but again still not true native UHD resolution.

Thanks, that's been really helpful and definetly opened up a new avenue. Given projectors are usually attached to a ceiling and just left there it looks to be easy to get hold of mint condition kit for very little. There seems to be limited availability of the X35 currently, but keeping my eye open. There's one on AVForums but collect only and being sold on behalf of someone else which puts me off. Certainly seems like a great way to upgrade the projector and still have budget available for an OLED.

This does seem like the best route to go, and if it doesn't work out I'll lose a minimal amount by selling it on.

Can't agree with that - some of the cheaper lesser brand projectors sure but a decent, but not stupidly expensive, Optoma, etc. even in a room that isn't setup for it and a fairly basic screen (as long as it isn't one of the naff cheap ones that try to do silly tricks too boost quality and fail miserably) will give an experience for watching movies only a very few TVs can compare to. Never mind a dedicated room properly painted and with a decent screen/surface to project on to.

Even my ageing 720p Optoma HD70 will give much better spec TVs a hard run for their money (unless you have some true 4K content which is properly mastered). (Especially with Netflix, etc. at the moment the Optoma with its image processing beats the **** out of my Philips Momentum - would probably change a bit if they go back to decent bitrates, etc. at 4K ).

Where TVs win out massively is the convenience side.

I must admit the more I think about it the more I enjoy using the projector. I've made a point of using it more over the last week and forgot how much I like watching it. Even watched WandaVision on it last night and was better than on the TV.

 

[Abyss]

Looks like some very split views on being for/against projectors! For clarity I have no intention of removing a projector from the living room, certainly not until at least 85" TVs are a reasonable price and even then they just feel tiny in comparison. Some great suggestions above, and I'm probably a third of the way there with the suggestions.

I'm less concerned with the sound suggestions at the moment as I'm pretty happy with the sound and in reality if I want to go a lot better on sound I need to make some drastic changes including a better quality AV amp, additional speakers and acoustically treating the room. I used to be really into my audio for music but reached the point of massively diminising returns.

My thoughts on the suggestions:

People use dark fabric on the wall surrounding the screen itself and the ceiling to stop reflection of light

Current plan is to go a lot darker with the paint on the walls and ceiling. Currently looking at 2%-3% sheen. When the projector screen is down it fills from the ceiling down to just behind the unit so the only wallspace visible is the left/right ends. In hindight I probably should have gone darker on the AV unit and has now got me thinking to also paint/replace the white gloss doors on the front!

Have a thick black border around the screen made of thin wood covered in black fabric.

Given it's a electric screen and the intention is to still keep a TV in the room I won't be able to unfortunately.

Ensure all lighting is controllable. So I'd probably have spotlights rigged up to dimmer switches and be able to for example only turn a few on at a time so I could have a little light around the edges or the back and then another switch or two for ones in the middle and then another to control the ones nearest to the screen and in direct path of the projector.

This thread has made me finally get round to installing lightwaveRF in the room (tonights plan). The kit has only been sat in the garage for 2 years! Fortunately I put a lot of consideration into the wiring of the house when buying it so the living room lighting is on 4 circuits. The current plan is to replace the wall lights with ones that hide the bulbs to make the light less harsh. Long term I have started designing some bespoke oak film poster frames with LED strips recessed behind to give a halo light. I did consider adding LED strip behind the coving but having seen a few examples now it might look a bit tacky.

Blackout curtains and blinds.

Curtains are blackout and the window is north facing. It's been fine over winter but does let some light through the top in summer so needs sorting. Currently deliberating between timber shutters or blackout blinds.

[/quote]Atmos speakers in the ceiling minimum of 4 I'd maybe wire 6 in for future proofing.[/quote]
Aiming to keep audio out of scope for now as that'll add thousands. The amp does support atmos though, is the difference a big enough leap? I've at least 3 sets of spare speakers I could use to try it out.

 

[Abyss]

Few considerations in my room:

- Walls are matt black, my ceiling is grey as are the coffers.
- The carpet is black with thick underlay.
- The screen is attached to the wall and has a non reflective border.
- The windows have blackout blinds and then acoustic theater cloth attached to a wooden frame "plug" which goes in the window recess with acoustic insulation behind.
- Have 7 seats all are black as are the tiered seating stages.
- Everything is Phillips hue, the whole room is controlled through an app, the door is a fire door and "sealed".
- The AC ductwork into the room is sound insulated.
- System is wired for 9.2.6, though I only use 7.2.4 at the moment.
- Projector is mounted on the back wall as far away from the back seating as possible and is black.
- Rear seats are moved away from the wall to help move you out of any Bass accumulation zone.
- All Av equipment, i.e. processor / amps / shield etc etc is hidden under the tiered seating with wisper quiet fans.
- Acoustic absorbers on first and second reflection points.
- Got some acoustic foam on walls opposite the side channels.
- Room is corrected using REW and a UMIK-1, multisub using a MiniDSP 2x4HD.

So much goes into a dedicated room, mine will never ever be finished, you always find something else to do, or go reading an discover a better way to do things.

Using the room to watch a movie is an experience and we really enjoy it, still feels special, I would not entertain the idea of having a projector in a normal living room, it simply isn't worth it, better off getting a TV.

Cheers, sounds like a great setup. I am doing my best to resist the temptation to make audio changes, but have you found the acoustic treatment as made a big difference and how are you finding Atmos?

Completely agree with you in terms of the seat away from the wall, it's slowly crept forward and is now about 1m from the back wall. Still not perfect but a lot better and has also meant i can centralise the sub behind the sofa.

 

[Abyss]

Agreed with Lucid's summary.

Just my 2 cents: I have QLED (with soundbar), OLED (with 5.1) and a 4K pseudo Optoma UHD300X projector with Dolby Atmos 5.1.2 onto a 130" screen.
They are in different rooms.
The QLED is in my living room which is very bright hence the super bright Samsung QLED option.
OLED is in my loft "man cave". OLED in the living room would be a no go for daytime viewing.
The projector and Atmos setup are in the kids playroom. Nothing special done to the room from a cinemaphile perspective. But this kit gets used at nighttime when all sound asleep upstairs and therefore no bright light to compete with. I would not use this during the day unless blinds and curtains drawn which is not practical with daytime family life anyway. Viewing position is maybe 2.5m which makes it utterly epic and even watching any Amazon Prime content becomes an occasion.

Now the point I will make is: they are all great experiences that I use for different things. But lets be clear (in my opinion) - playing something like HALO 5 on a 130" screen with 5.1.2 is incomparable to the experience of either of the TV setups. Absolute PQ is not the only measure.
So my summary - have a TV and a PJ if you can - but there is no need to go for the whole "cinema room in your house" before you can have a great experience with a PJ. I just find that is often an argument made by TV users to dissuade people looking into PJ's.

I must admit this definitely resounds with me. Pre-covid plenty of people wanted to come and watch films here on the projector even though they had big screen TVs at home. I think I've spent too long watching most things on 120" that watching content on a screen nearly a quater the size just isn't the same.

 

[Abyss]

Decision made and thank you for all your advice. I'm going to spend up to £1k on a second hand projector as it seems better value for money and long term plan in a TV upgrade, likely to a 75" OLED. For now I am going to leave the audio as-is, but add the wiring for 7.2.4 as I'm decorating anyway and will future proof the room.

I'd been looking at the JVC X35 suggested above but can't find one I'm happy with currently. Does anyone have any thoughts on the Panasonic PT-AT6000E please? It was WhatHIFI's projector of the year back in 2013 priced at £2k-£3k and seems to be a strong contender. Does anyone know how much of a step up this will be versus my current Optoma HD200X and how far behind is it versus the current gen projectors like the Epson 9400 (other than the obvious of 1080p v pseudo 4k)?

 

[Abyss]

Hi all, firstly just wanted to say thanks for all your advice and secondly give an update on the route I went.

In the end I held fire upgrading the projector. It will get upgraded eventually but I'll defer it to later in the year.

I did however invest in:

• 4 speaker Atmos
• A new amp as I was weak and my current one didn't support 4 channel - Went with the Denon 4700H. At first I ordered 2 ceiling speakers, then decided it was silly to not install both sets now, then decided it was also silly to have 2 speakers I can't use
  
• A new TV - The 65" LG CX OLED. This also means the current 65" can go in the kitchen where I'm planning to make a built in unit
• Painting the room darker (blue walls, cream ceiling)
• Adding better lighting including replacing the hanging lights with ceiling spots for task lighting and LED coving (still WIP as the LED strips haven't arrived yet)
• Running all the cabling properly so I finally don't have a single cable running round the room
• Fully boxing in the projector screen

Still on the list is:

• New sofas once the shops open
• Fit the warm white LED to the coving
• Properly fit the RDG LED to the underside of the projector screen boxing
• Eventually replace the projector
• Tiling the fireplace surround as neither of us like the yellow and respraying the duct as gloss black looks odd
• Fitting blue painted false fronts to the radiators
• Fitting a white acoustic mesh front to the middle AV unit gap so it matches the doors

Whilst not quite finished I'm already really pleased with it. The TV is brilliant, the black levels on the projector are far better and the sound is in another league compares to the Sony 1080 and non atmos setup.

I'll update further once it's complete.

 

[Abyss]

You have a massive room. IMO go Projector. TVs are for small rooms imo, people who can't afford to house a PJ & the sound gear associated with one. Yours looks massive. Sure, some people have big houses and don't have a projector.. that means nothing. PJ and home cinema gear is generally and enthusiast level tier and most people in the world aren't HT enthusiasts.

My 77'' GX looked good in a 3x3M room but in my 6Mx4.5m room, it looks awfully pathetic.


Projection choice

In your room, the despite the walls being dark blue, you have loads of ambient light. If you don't plan to paint your ceiling, buy an Epson 9300 if trying to stay around £1k. Tonemap HDR content to SDR with BT2020 colour space with MADVR or a Lumagen and use SDR for gaming. Epson should release the 9500 this year so its a bad time to buy the 9400. I would not get the X35 because you will need the lumen output and it will be crap for 4K obviously as it doesn't do it.


What is the width of your room in metres? And length? You have the potential for a truly cinematic image.




I am currently doing some experimentation in one of our spare lounges before we do a 10Mx14M extension this summer (or next if can't find a decently priced builder). In one lounge with VERY bad light control due to ceiling windows, I've managed to fairly adequately light control it. Painted ceiling dark grey, painted walls light grey, and plan to use MVEL22 curtains on the side walls for when its really cinema time. The front Projection stage (where all the gears and speakers are, will sit on MEVEL22 too.

Your dark blue wall colour is pretty awesome for minimising light reflections.



Display size comparison (and the hilarious sitting closer debate)

I went from a 77'' GX to my current projection image.

16:9 I can manage:
http://www.displaywars.com/160-inch-16x9-vs-77-inch-16x9

In cinemascope, I can manage:
http://www.displaywars.com/170-inch-235x1-vs-77-inch-16x9

If you take away the black bars from the 77'' OLED, it ends up looking like this on the comparison
http://www.displaywars.com/170-inch-235x1-vs-70-inch-235x1


From the photos of your room, I feel you'll be able to get bigger, better results.



Picture Quality
Put simply, it won't be as good as a flat panel, especially an OLED. But once you go as big as reaching a truly cinematic breath taking image, the projection has massive advantages re: entertainment, immersion, appreciation of detail, which a small TV can't touch.



Best method is have the best of both worlds but the issue with this is the screens are very expensive if you are going for a gigantic screen. I'd definitely buy an Epson 9300/9400 and try the maximum size image and see what you think!

Sorry for the slow reply everyonem, life has been a bit manic!

Cheers for all the advice aoaaron. The living room is about 3.6m by 5.4m. The current screen from memory is about 120 inches. Painting the walls blue has made a huge difference to the projector, I did deliberate going blue with the ceiling aswell but went for a cream in the end which has helped whilst keeping some contrast when it's used as a living room. Colour scheme is below:

I will definitely be upgrading the projector at some point, but will probably wait until true 4k projectors are slightly cheaper. This is however a quick phone snapshot of what the image now looks like with the current projector:

The next thing I need to look at is adding shutters or similar to the windows. It's fine currently as we only watch films when it's dark but as we get into summer I doubt the current blackout curtains will do enough to prevent light spilling round them.