Uber lose battle in Supreme Court on drivers right

[Bald-Eagle22]

Here we go , massive can of worms about to be opened .

This won’t just effect London Uber drivers .

https://news.sky.com/story/uber-los...n-drivers-rights-in-gig-economy-test-12222531

No further right of appeal .

Will have implications for all Gigg economy workers .

 

[Bald-Eagle22]

To me, it feels like a good thing. Appreciate i am not an user driver who could see my income fall as a result of this, though!

Ultimately, everyone wants public services, but they have to be paid for somehow.

Much of the disruptor services leech off existing infrastructure without paying in. I don't see that as a viable long-term situation for any taxpayer.

Absolutely couldn’t agree more however I don’t feel this will be good for anyone. if Uber or untimely all Gigg employers have to abide by this the it makes it unsustainable, you can’t just have members of staff sitting on metered time time waiting for a job , costs would go to the moon and back and ultimately us the consumer will end up paying .

Knowing Uber they will either cease trading or work out some algorithms so drivers can’t log on when they have no work or worst still all the work they do will be rounded up to minimum wage .

 

[Bald-Eagle22]

So why were so many drivers keen to move from say Addison Lee to uber then? Why, if it is so bad, don't most uber drivers seem to actually want this change?

How are they being treated like dirt under this model as opposed to say some new model where they're possibly required to do shifts of a set duration or required to go to certain areas where there is more demand instead of just relying on incentivizing them etc..?

Do you honestly think it would be better if they were to be paid at least minimum wage but in return, they then had various targets they must hit otherwise they get sacked? You remove the freedom of choice that plenty of them value and add in some additional stress but at least you've removed some variance from their pay right (even if that then causes a bunch to lose money).

You got this spot on , if you did a straw pole of Uber drivers and told them the implication of this they wouldn’t a change . The flexibility Uber gives the self employed drivers is what the attraction was for 45,000 drivers .

Anyhow I feel if enforced Uber might up sticks and not actually employ drivers directly and just act as an aggregator for other fleets and pass on the work just taking a booking fee.

I’m in the trade and now they bought Autocab last year , Autocab are is a national cab platform . I.e if I take a booking in Edinburgh but my operation is in London I can get the booking covered if I’m on Autocab from a supplier in Edinburgh on Autocab . We’re talking the corporate world here but it can easily be flipped to be used in conjunction with the Uber app .

Uber have purchased this platform , they have a brand that people will book and threes plenty of private hire firms in central London that will take work from them . As I said if pushed they will just give up and runa virtual fleet and not have the headache of drivers .

The drivers that brought this law suit might just have shots themselves in the head .

https://www.uber.com/en-GB/newsroom/uber-to-acquire-autocab/

 

[Bald-Eagle22]

Why is everyone mentioning tax?

The ruling is about minimum wage and holiday pay from what I can see.

How does minimum wage even work when all the costs can only be known by the driver because they are in reality self employed. If uber do offer a minimum wage, it's not even going to cover costs most likely.

Also pretty much all minicab companies operate this way. So all that will happen is the industry will be pushed into smaller minicab companies.

Food delivery? Back to having restaurants individually hiring self employed delivery drivers.

What they mean and a lot of guys are missing this is the Gigg economy is not taxed at source . If your company’s to make workers employees ( as this will ) tax is paid at source and the government get a nice big fat increase in the tax take . It will probably run like the builders pay tax I think , expenses submitted , forgot what form they submitted .

I have my suspicions this ruling was delayed until after our exit from the EU and designed closely with the treasury.

The other point now though is if you want cabs at the flick of an app , pizza at the click of an app or your Amazon delivery the next day then the cost just doubled , maybe even more .

 

[Bald-Eagle22]

The ruling doesn't make them employees, it makes them "workers" which is different.

Your right but it’s called Employed Status . It effectively gives them workers rights , holiday pay and sick pay - but guess who paying for it - won’t be Uber , Amazon or Just eats it will be you the consumer .

 

[Bald-Eagle22]

You'd be amazed at just how much people are willing to pay for being lazy.

I've seen people pay £6-7 for delivery when their order was under £5. Uber Eats from work are rarely above £10 yet pay nearly as much to have it delivered within an hour. Guess there must be an abundance of pot smokers with the munchies in the area.

Lol , yes I’ve seen it working shifts in the office - it’s terrible . That being said it cost a lot of money to pay holiday and sick pay .

 

[Bald-Eagle22]

Re the meter still going up when stationary, here’s the reason why, sanctioned by TFL.
Every X amount of seconds when stationary, 20p goes on the meter.
I totally accept that you have no personal animosity toward Black Cab drivers, and no, they’re not competitive, but remember that their overheads far, far, exceed those of a minicab or Uber driver, but I stress, ultimately you have the whip hand, you’re the customer, whichever service you opt for is your choice.


Tariff 1
For any hiring during Monday to Friday between 05:00 and 20:00, other than on a public holiday:

• For the first 227 metres or 48.8 seconds (whichever is reached first) there is a minimum charge of £3.20
• For each additional 113.5 metres or 24.4 seconds (whichever is reached first), or part thereof, if the distance travelled is less than 9647.5 metres there is a charge of 20p
• Once the distance has reached 9647.5 metres then there is a charge of 20p for each additional 86.9 metres or 18.7 seconds (whichever is reached first), or part thereof

Tariff 2
For any hiring either during Monday to Friday between 20:00 and 22:00 or during Saturday or Sunday between 05:00 and 22:00, other than on a public holiday:

• For the first 184.8 metres or 39.8 seconds (whichever is reached first) there is a minimum charge of £3.20
• For each additional 92.4 metres or 19.9 seconds (whichever is reached first), or part thereof, the distance travelled is less than 9609.6 metres there is a charge of 20p
• Once the distance has reached 9609.6 metres then there is a charge of 20p for each additional 86.9 metres or 18.7 seconds (whichever is reached first), or part thereof

Tariff 3
For any hiring between 22:00 on any day and 05:00 the following day or at any time on a public holiday:

• For the first 162.4 metres or 35 seconds (whichever is reached first) there is a minimum charge of £3.00
• For each additional 81.2 metres or 17.5 seconds (whichever is reached first), or part thereof, the distance travelled is less than 9,581.6 metres there is a charge of 20p

Not so sure about that Jean , we rent a Prius out fully serviced and insured for £220 a week and make very little mark up on it . TFL licensed vehicles have to have am MOT every 6 months and an annual PCO inspection . In addition to that every day you enter the congestion charge zone that’s another £15.20 a day so in effect another £76.50 a week or £296 a week before fuel - a 5 day weeks cost for a central London private hire driver is around £350 per week with fuel . Sorry any driver worth his salt will be chasing work in the zone - it’s where the money is .

How on earth the Supreme Court can get anyone to work out what that rate would be to log onto the app and be paid holiday pay , sick pay and employee NI is totally beyond me.I think employed builders rules changed where they were taxed at source and claimed back expensises at the end of year ? Given the expenses involved I dint think that will work.

All I know is the Uber model will change , prices will increase to facilitate the extra costs and driver might not have the flexibility of working when they want and what job they choose , reject a job and your effectively in breach of working conditions.

There is another option for Uber here and it’s a distinct possibility EMPLOY NO DRIVERS - hear me out . Uber purchased a national cab platform called Autocab last year https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/aug/06/uber-buys-uk-minicab-software-company-autocab. With Autocab you can cover work through there cab exchange program , job gets booked in a London office for a job is say Birmingham , it then Goes through the system to the Birmingham Autocab user and gets covered , London office just take a booking fee . Uber are the brand and there are plenty of London private hire company’s using Autocab , Uber can use there booking app integrated with Autocab and run a virtual fleet . No drivers just booking fees and no bs for them .

Either way this will be very interesting to see how this all pans out .

 

[Bald-Eagle22]

One of the worst supreme court rulings in British history.

Absolutely, watch cab fares go through the roof .

 

[Bald-Eagle22]

Is that all we care about tho? We could abolish min wage and employment rights and have really cheap cab fares, with cab drivers basically earning enough for a can of beans and a cardboard box to sleep in, if you really wanted that.

Could do that with all such professions. I'm sure you could knock a few quid off the cost of Amazon Prime if Bezos was allowed to run the warehouses with a child slave labour workforce

Not disputing what your saying at all the point I’m making is it will make a loss in trade for the drivers . Being in the industry I’ll tell you now the majority of Uber driver once they understand the Implications will call BS on this ruling . Uber will lay off drivers in droves , if not all of them ( yes this could happen, they could run a virtual fleet though other suppliers ) , and the ones left will have to work under very inflexible guidelines .

The appeal for all Uber drivers is the total flexibility it gives a driver , work when they want with no set hours . Get offered a job and reject it as they simply don’t fancy going in that direction , if this is Implemented this all stops .

 

[Bald-Eagle22]

That's a very interesting thing to say. Weren't you calling Hamilton a tax dodger.

HMRC is convinced Uber owes them billions in tax and not paying that tax (unlike competitors) contributes to Uber charging what it does.

Do you respect Uber dodging financial obligations because you're benefiting?

Yes I did and he has but not sure what thanks to do with this !

If your referring to drivers not paying taxes then all fool them they will get caught eventually, and a lot do .There is detailed paper trail in London of every job done and which driver did it , it’s all part of TFL licensing compliance for operators and gets uploaded to TFL on a weekly basis .

I think you have the wrong end of the stick here. I don’t work for Uber as a driver I work in the private hire industry in operation. I know what costs operators and drivers alike have and to add holiday pay , sick pay and N.I ect will mean costs go up to the end user and Uber will have to change there working model . In turn it changes the inflexibility for the driver and ultimately customers service levels will drop .

From a drivers perspective it’s a lose lose.

I believe the bill from HMRC is Vat that should have been charged to customers on journeys , nothing directly involved with driver earnings. This is to do with the argument of how they operate.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/uber-could-face-2bn-vat-bill-cf3xkccx5

 

[Bald-Eagle22]

Following letter went out to all Uber drivers ealrier in the week - feel they will be back at court as its not paying them for being on standby .

New rights and protections, same flexibility

Dear

I want to personally thank all of you who responded to our nationwide consultation about your experience using Uber.

We have listened to what you told us, assessed the Supreme Court judgement, and have reached the clear conclusion that you should not have to compromise on flexibility in order to benefit from new rights and protections.




So from tomorrow, 17 March 2021, we commit that every trip you complete on Uber will include:

1. An additional payment of 12.07% of your earnings (after vehicle running costs) every two weeks, to reflect your right to paid holiday.
2. A guarantee that you will always earn at least the minimum wage (National Living Wage) of £8.72 per hour (after vehicle running costs) starting from the time you accept a trip on the app to the point at which the trip completes. This is a minimum amount, not a maximum, and you will continue to have the opportunity to earn more.
3. Uber will establish a pension scheme for all eligible drivers to be automatically enrolled into, with contributions from both Uber and drivers. This will take time to set up with the Pensions Regulator, but you will be notified once established and have the option to opt out if you choose.

The first payment for holiday pay and any necessary wage top ups will be paid on 3 May 2021. This will include payments dated from 17 March 2021.




We want to reassure you that the following will remain the same:

• You still have the flexibility and control over when and how you earn on the Uber app.
• Upfront pricing still applies and fares will still be calculated in the same way based on the time and distance rates.
• There are no changes to trip information or service fee.
• You remain self-employed for tax purposes.
• You still have access to benefits such as free insurance with AXA and education with The Open University through Uber Pro.
• You can still drive with other operators, but we aren’t aware of others making these important changes. We hope others will follow.

We will share details over the next few days on how to express interest in a compensation payment for historical trips if you are eligible. Please note that the changes mentioned above do not apply to Uber Fleet Partners and Uber Eats Couriers.




For more information, please visit our Frequently Asked Questions page on the link below. Please note that unfortunately we won’t be able to help at our Greenlight Hubs as we are following COVID guidelines at this time, so if you have any additional questions please visit the ‘Help’ section in your app.




Thank you,
Jamie Heywood
Uber’s General Manager for Northern and Eastern Europe

Read FAQ

 

[Bald-Eagle22]

Point is that as far as the law goes people who are employees and on standby, their standby time does count for the calculation of minimum wage.

Uber are trying to pull another fast one but will soon be back in court and will lose again.

Now that the sc have ruled that they are employees, the standard minimum wage law applies.

You got it in one Greebo , as I said yes I feel this will be back in court .

But to answer Surveyors question yes my drivers had been paid to be on standby , historical it’s been anything up to a 20% uplift on earnings if they have completed scheduled shifts. Although we have stopped any retention schemes awaiting this ruling , cant add much more to this .

I just can’t see how passenger rates are going to stay the same .