UPS 3 hour up time for 30W?

Meddling-Monk · 2 Aug 2023 at 13:10

Hi all, wondering if anyone knows of a UPS I can grab that can keep several devices totalling around 30W of power up for around 3 hours? I'm aware that the rolling brown outs/black outs are unlikely to be a thing now, but as I'd like to keep options open in case things take a dive out of the blue again.

I'm hoping to keep alive the following items:
Modem (Adtran 621i): Required to keep Internet alive. 12W needed.
Router (Linksys Velop WiFi6): Needed to get everything connected to the Modem (VOIP is directly connected to this) also for any WiFi connections needed. 13W needed.
VOIP Box (Grandstream HT801): Required to have a Voice Line out (Phone is directly connected to this). 2.3W needed.
Phone (Panasonic TGJ423, only need base unit though during such times connected): Required to make calls if needed (and mobile connections are flakey). 0.7W needed

So they average around 30W of power needed.

Anyone able to recommend something that can power all of them for that period of time? Or even multiple UPS if I split it up (~15W between two UPS)? Just want to plan ahead in case needed down the line given I am now a full time carer for a family member now that remains a falls risk and has other medical issues and thus need a line out if required. Also during such times, I could also offer my neighbours guest wifi network access so they're not cut off if the mobile networks are swamped.

Silent and easy battery swap or a purchase/delivery and recycle service (if battery is non removable) would be great as well (my old APC Brick was a chore to remove as no local Electronic Waste Recycling and APC wouldn't deliver and recycle for consumers).

Thanks all.

Meddling-Monk · 10 Sep 2023 at 15:44

With the talk about another "possible" outtage season ahead, I'm re-upping this post.

I've seen a Cyberpower UPS that is 900W and 1500VA (Cyberpower CP1500EPFCLCD-UK Backup UPS PFC Pure Sinewave 1500VA/900W 2 x UK Sockets 4 x IEC) that has a battery that can last at least 2 hours. It's provided graphs by Cyberpower give an in use wattage that is much higher than the 30W I'll need when it can provide 2 hours of power, but I believe that the battery is the main detail on how long the battery can last, and thus the maximum I can get out of this would only ever be 2 hours, anyone know if this is correct?

And if anyone knows, if I grab another UPS to put these into serial (one plugged into the other via their mains), to - in theory, grab another hour out of the UPS, would this be safe to do so?

Thanks for any and all info.

Steeps · 11 Sep 2023 at 00:24

Most new builds with fibre to the property came fitted with a mini battery UPS to keep the fibre line active during a power cut. With battery packs and lithium batteries being more efficient you'd be better looking at something like the Eaton 3s mini as it will be far more efficient and last longer. There are other types available but the reviews said the voltages were a bit flakey at higher load.

For a standard UPS during a power cut you'd be converting 12v battery back up to 240v then back down to around 12v to power the device which is a huge waste of efficiency. You could expand the battery capacity to a bigger one but would the standard UPS be able to charge it.

Daisychaining UPS also a bad idea, again the inefficiencies with it going from one unit to another, when the power is restored the first UPS is not only powering the devices but also pulling power to charge the other UPS.

I recently got a 900w UPS for a similar comms cupboard but I have a home assistant PC and Poe switch which made the requirement for higher voltage essential, but I think the lithium UPS systems would be the best solution for keeping a voip setup alive for longer periods.

Rroff · 11 Sep 2023 at 00:33

Daisy chaining UPS might not even work - some will see the power output from some UPS as unstable and swap to battery and/or constantly flicking on and off battery.

I'm not a big fan any more of standard UPS for this kind of stuff though they tend to be a bit more cost effective - the batteries in them don't seem to last long at all - but the lithium based alternatives i.e. portable power stations which have UPS functionality tend to be a bit pricey i.e. Renogy do a 1500 watt one with UPS functionality but it costs £800-900.

In one setup I'm using a 1000 watt Renogy inverter which has UPS functionality using some big leisure batteries which are charged via solar.

Steeps said:
Eaton 3s mini

I've been using a couple of these to keep routers, etc. powered up but they don't seem to last as long as I'd have thought on battery - even baring in mind they are basically using just a couple of 2200mah 18650s - I've been toying with the idea of opening one up to see if I can upgrade it to some bigger capacity batteries.

Meddling-Monk · 11 Sep 2023 at 01:21

Thanks guys for the suggestions for alternatives, I'll start looking towards those to see if any fit what we need here.

Not a new build here, so unfortunately all the legwork is required by us here to get this up and running in case of any 3 hour time outs up ahead.

If anyone has any other suggestions, I'd be happy to read about them too.

Rroff · 11 Nov 2023 at 08:05

Bumping the thread but looks like the battery(s) have died after about a year on one of my Eaton 3S and the other barely seems to hold a charge, bit disappointing given they are li-ion, haven't investigated though.

I've seen several comments along the lines of:

I own three of these units. Two worked great during a power cut yesterday, but one of them instantly dropped the output power.

They are all around 12 months old.

The one unit which failed had actually been fully discharged once, several months ago during a previous power cut. The other two units did not fully discharge, because they have very light loads (~3 watts vs the ~9 watts attached to the failed unit).

Both of the lipo cells inside (TP LI-ION 3.7V ICR18650 2200mAh MH46259 UD020) now read at roughly 0.125 volts, so my /assumption/ is that these are unprotected cells and the unit itself does not have a low-voltage automatic cutoff.

This is extremely problematic, because whenever there's a lengthy power cut, there is a solid risk that the unit itself will then be bricked unless you want to manually replace the lipo cells inside.

So I'm afraid I need to give the "overall rating" as just one star because of this. Sorry, Eaton. Unless I'm mistaken and the one unit is faulty, then you will need to release a revision 2.0 which includes proper cell protection.

Ideally they would auto power-off at, say, 20% power remaining. Perhaps even make the percentage/voltage configurable with a DIP switch somewhere, but obviously a DIP switch would add slightly to the materials cost & the plastics would need redesigning, so a straightforward X% cut-off would be the most reasonable thing to implement.

Gonna see how easy they are to replace with protected 18650s, though tempted to build my own mini UPS from scratch as USB comms so as to implement low battery device shutdown would be useful.

Rroff · 15 Nov 2023 at 00:01

Less than half a volt on the batteries - easy enough to replace themselves - but space is tight for protected ones - would have to shave down the white plastic tabs a bit to make them fit probably.

As reminder of the potential dangers of stuff like this - the mains side capacitors still had over 70V across them despite leaving it for awhile.

Meddling-Monk · 30 Nov 2023 at 01:17

Grabbed the Cyberpower 1500VA when it was on offer, so have it with me now. The only question I have left (before I start charging it up proper and seeing if it can also last the 3 hours desired), is this (I hope someone knows the answer to as online seems to be varied on what's what):

I know from what @Rroff said that going serial from one UPS to another is problematic (battery may kick in often if not all the time causing premature downgrade and burnout of the battery if not potentially a fire hazzard). But due to my parents place only having the one outlet where the communications equipment is there's not many options available to us. This is where the TV and a small media PC is as well, we currently have everything plugged into a Belkin Surge Protector strip (8 sockets).

Would it still be problematic plugging the UPS into the Surge Protector strip (just to receive power) and having the communications moved to the UPS only? Would it still bounce between battery and online power? Or any other issues? We only need the UPS to power and maintain the comms in case of power outtage. And the other outlet sockets on the Surge Protector strip will be used for the other devices so the UPS will never be overloaded.

Going the other way, UPS first, and a PDU out to power the rest is not viable unfortunately, as this UPS has battery backup for all the outlets it has, meaning it'll try and keep everything up on power out instead of just for the comms units.

Incidentally, anyone know of a basic Power Strip (non Surge Protected) that I can grab if need be (to go from AC Wall Outlet, and then UPS and devices into this strip?). As I'm looking around and so many of them include the surge protection anyway, so just not sure if this (UPS and Surge Protectors) is still an issue, and what my (safe) options are going ahead.

Thanks all.

Rroff · 30 Nov 2023 at 01:42

Having the UPS connected to a surge protector then into the wall while not ideal should be OK as long as the surge protector doesn't have an active power filtering component (your average consumer power strip one doesn't) and peak power draw from the surge protector is low (like 100s of watts) - but you shouldn't really have devices with a high power on surge or peak power spikes plugged into a surge protector anyway.

EDIT: One problem can be the earth connection - some cheap surge protectors might skimp on it - you can get ones with an earth status indicator.

Meddling-Monk · 30 Nov 2023 at 01:50

Rroff said:
Having the UPS connected to a surge protector then into the wall while not ideal should be OK as long as the surge protector doesn't have an active power filtering component (your average consumer power strip one doesn't) and peak power draw from the surge protector is low (like 100s of watts) - but you shouldn't really have devices with a high power on surge or peak power spikes into a surge protector anyway.

Thanks, that's exactly the confirmation of information I needed (not ideal but safe enough still to plug UPS into the Surge Protector strip).

The Surge Protector strip is an older Belkin standard protected Surge Protector with no active filtering. So just need to make sure the rest of the attached devices don't cause problems through pulled power (it shouldn't given the power needed from them).

Thanks again for confirming.

Rroff · 30 Nov 2023 at 02:01

Meddling-Monk said:
Thanks, that's exactly the confirmation of information I needed (not ideal but safe enough still to plug UPS into the Surge Protector strip).

The Surge Protector strip is an older Belkin standard protected Surge Protector with no active filtering. So just need to make sure the rest of the attached devices don't cause problems through pulled power (it shouldn't given the power needed from them).

Thanks again for confirming.

To be honest it is only going to cause a problem in relatively unusual circumstances like if someone had an industrial scale power saw or something that they were operating daily plugged in along side a good load on the UPS.

Though having a good earth connection can be important so generic noname surge protectors should be avoided.

Meddling-Monk · 5 Dec 2023 at 13:51

An update to this, so I've got it all installed up properly and set up. And the battery indicator suggests it can give 195+ minutes of power up time during any power outage for the communications equipment (also timed it to see the estimation go up/down and it does seem to tally). More than enough for the 3 hours rolling outages that the grid are thinking of in case it's necessary. This is for the aforementioned communications equipment (VOIP, Phone, Router and ONT Modem, totalling around 30W).

Thanks for the help all, also hope this helps anyone looking to do the same thing for vulnerable family.

Rroff · 25 Jan 2024 at 08:26

Did a bit of a deep dive on the Eaton unit - it uses a ARM Cortex MCU (STM32) for power management which seems to have buggy low voltage cut-off functionality - frustrating as it would likely be an easy fix if I had the source for the firmware, also frustrating in that it would probably be easy to add remote management of the device and more crucially the ability to shutdown connected hardware via USB or serial using the controller.

I'm hoping it is properly charging the batteries individually rather than half-arsing it and charging the 2 18650s onboard via series

as I'm sticking 2x higher capacity protected batteries in there, which annoyingly requires butchering the unit a bit to make them fit - hopefully it wasn't designed intentionally to prevent protected batteries fitting for a reason :s

I ended up building something around an ATTiny85 to do a bit of remote monitoring of the battery and implement the ability to shutdown via USB, which it turns out was a less than ideal approach as the USB to serial functionality of the ATTiny85 is bad when it does work and doesn't work at all under Windows 10 or newer, but I had some to hand and they fit the limited spare space in the device, so I ended up doing a horrible hack bridging data over the USB HID interface via raw input which does work for it but has a lot of limitations and challenges and resulted in having to write my own power monitoring software from scratch and I'm no C++ programmer :cry:

(also the ADC on the ATTiny85 is a bit noisy making accurate voltage monitoring for this use tricky).

(I built the software around supporting batteries up to 15V hence the slider at the bottom for defining the battery profile isn't using the full range very well)

Before putting it back together - unfortunately not much space to mount it so the USB socket was accessible directly - had to hot glue the ATTiny85 vertical beside the batteries.

I think I need to just make something like this myself from scratch using something a bit beefier and better supported from the Arduino family for a controller.

5abr3 · 25 Jan 2024 at 10:40

One thing that wasn't mentioned early on in this thread (and may help someone else) is if you got a pair of UPS you could run them in parallel and split the loads (if you manage to get a 50/50 split then you should get roughly the same runtime).

That does however need a bit of planning in terms of current when charging so I wouldn't personally do that unless there's a twin (or more) socket from the wall available.

There also comes a point where the UPS hardware starts to limit how much you can get from what it needs to run itself.

In terms of longevity of batteries, I have the same Cyberpower 1500VA (uptime of just shy of 3 years) and the batteries seem to be doing OK so far. The idle load is currently 27W and it is reporting 150 to 155 minutes of uptime predicted.

Rroff · 25 Jan 2024 at 12:51

5abr3 said:
In terms of longevity of batteries, I have the same Cyberpower 1500VA (uptime of just shy of 3 years) and the batteries seem to be doing OK so far. The idle load is currently 27W and it is reporting 150 to 155 minutes of uptime predicted.

I've tended to get 2-3 years out of lead acid batteries in standard UPS like the APCs ones - I've not tried Cyberpower myself. Though APC is highly rated by people who do this kind of thing professionally those people also mention the charging on APC tends to be more intensive than necessary shortening battery life and they aren't always best designed to deal with heat.

5abr3 · 25 Jan 2024 at 13:11

Rroff said:
I've tended to get 2-3 years out of lead acid batteries in standard UPS like the APCs ones - I've not tried Cyberpower myself. Though APC is highly rated by people who do this kind of thing professionally those people also mention the charging on APC tends to be more intensive than necessary shortening battery life and they aren't always best designed to deal with heat.

So long as I can get enough to safely run a graceful shutdown of the NAS and PC I'm currently happy to see how far this set of batteries go. I recall reading you can apparently hot swap the batteries in this unit but I'll be doing it cold when it comes to that.

As far as APC goes: they are what are used where I work and I am yet to hear any complaints from the guys responsible for that side of things but they had a huge lead time when I bought the NAS.

Rroff · 25 Jan 2024 at 13:37

Going back to the Eaton unit a moment - trying to infer battery state of charge and behaviour from observations, rather than being inside the charge controller, is a pain in the rear :s under some loads the battery will suddenly drop to quite a bit lower voltage but then stay there for a long time, while with a fluctuating load the voltage can go up and down a bit making it difficult to know if the battery is discharging or at rest and when it is being charged at some points you can only detect the charging voltage not the current battery state :s

jaybee · 25 Jan 2024 at 13:39

Rroff said:
I've tended to get 2-3 years out of lead acid batteries in standard UPS like the APCs ones - I've not tried Cyberpower myself. Though APC is highly rated by people who do this kind of thing professionally those people also mention the charging on APC tends to be more intensive than necessary shortening battery life and they aren't always best designed to deal with heat.

I have experienced similar. I just checked and I last bought a replacement battery for my APC UPS in January 2021, 3 years ago. I have had as little as just over 1 year (possibly a bad battery), and as good as 3-4 years. My batteries generally go through hellish conditions. Loft or shed. Both get very hot in summer and very cold in winter. I forget the model but it's a smallish smart UPS 1000 or something like that. It's ancient. I inherited it from possibly pre 2010 ish. It still works perfectly.

The batteries are only £30 a pop, which I can stomach every few years and just pay it. Takes a few minutes to swap. Otherwise it's a fit and forget product and has been super reliable and has done the job perfectly when needed. The other week during the cold snap, I accidentally plugged a 2KW Electric Oil heater into it. It actually ran fine for about 10 minutes then turned off and I realised what I'd done! UPS needed the over charge thing on the back resetting and then it was ready to go as normal.

Rroff · 25 Jan 2024 at 15:42

Yeah my APC ones still work perfectly, aside from needing the batteries changed - supposedly there is a easy li-ion mod you can do for it but I've not looked into it.

Need to get my brother to test his APC ones actually - they've been running since 2019 so may be about done battery wise.

aardvark · 25 Jan 2024 at 16:59

i'm on my second apc as the last one dies after about 10 years.
They are owned by schneider so know what they are doing.
I certainly wouldn't use Li batteries - i dont see the point. they dont last as long and also have a fire risk compared to the lead acid.
Lead acid batteries can be good for up to 10 years if you keep them at a good temp.