US Plane Vs British Tank

[SiD the Turtle]

If it was simply a matter of numbers there would have course also be many more cases of USA forces mistakenly attacking othe USA forces.

To elaborate: if it was just a matter of numbers then the huge majority of USA soldiers would lead to USA soldiers being the attackers in a huge majority of blue-on-blue (the term "friendly fire" gets on my ****) incidents...but it would also lead to the victims being USA soldiers in the same huge majority of cases.

Unless you can show that is the case, your line of argument is of course wrong.

A good point. I have no evidence but I doubt that UK newspapers will be reporting the number of US vs US as its simply not as important to UK news as x vs UK incidents.

 

[Angilion]

I guess I missed the point you were trying to make. I was not trying to imply that the FF incidents were one sides or not but that the numbers of troops is, at least IMHO, a valid point for why the US seems to be the agressors in more FF incidents.

If it's simply a matter of the number of troops, the US would be the victims much more often, too. I've said that twice, rephrased it...maybe an analogy would help.

You have 100 marbles in a container. 95 of then are green. 5 of them are blue. Every now and then, a randomly selected marble will be thrown in the air and land on a randomly selected marble. The chance of the thrown marble being green is nearly 20 times as high as the chance of it being blue and the chance of the marble it lands on being green is also nearly 20 times as high as the chance of it being blue.

I think that there are specific issues regarding multi-nation forces and being killed by your own allies from other countries, not just a matter of numbers.

 

[Stiff_Cookie]

If it's simply a matter of the number of troops, the US would be the victims much more often, too. I've said that twice, rephrased it...maybe an analogy would help.

You have 100 marbles in a container. 95 of then are green. 5 of them are blue. Every now and then, a randomly selected marble will be thrown in the air and land on a randomly selected marble. The chance of the thrown marble being green is nearly 20 times as high as the chance of it being blue and the chance of the marble it lands on being green is also nearly 20 times as high as the chance of it being blue.

I think that there are specific issues regarding multi-nation forces and being killed by your own allies from other countries, not just a matter of numbers.

I think it falls down to communication breakdown. In this case specifically, the US base did not appear to know that there were British forces in the area. Why? (rhetorical)

 

[miracleboy]

Are there many incidents of British friendly fire?

One of the most famous instances was in the Falklands War when two special forces patrols (SAS & SBS I think) came across each other at night and both opened fire leading to casualties.

 

[Angilion]

I think it falls down to communication breakdown. In this case specifically, the US base did not appear to know that there were British forces in the area. Why? (rhetorical)

More usefully, thinking about it might lead to less blue-on-blue deaths. Perhaps the current level is inevitable with multi-nation forces, but perhaps it can be reduced by better communications between each nation's forces, or by more training, particularly between allies who repeatedly fight together. For example, are USA soldiers trained to recognise British military vehicles from the air as well as USA ones, and vice versa? When a USA pilot calls back to a USA control to report a possible target and check for friendlies in the area, can the British equivalent be tied in more effectively, and vice versa? Ideally, all allied countries who might have forces in the area should be in realtime contact. Pilot from country A calls in to check for friendlies and has immediate contact with not just a control for country A but also one for country B, C, whoever is on the same side.

 

[Shackley]

UK inquiry criticises friendly fire pilots

An official British inquiry into the friendly fire disaster in Iraq which killed Lance Corporal Matty Hull of the Household Cavalry contains scathing criticism of the actions of the American pilots and ground crew involved, it emerged yesterday.
. . .
The pilot of the A10 aircraft who twice attacked the British patrol was named by the Sun as Colonel Gus "Skeeter" Kohntopp. He was a lieutenant colonel reservist in the Idaho Air National Guard when he attacked the convoy in his first combat mission.
. . .
"The aircrew did not receive clear authority from the GFAC [ground forward air controller] for Popov 36 to engage." The board's report goes on: "At no stage was Manila Hotel advised of the new target ... Popov was not clear to engage." It said that British psychologists noted that Popov 36 showed a "single-minded pursuit of the UK vehicles".
. . .
The problem was compounded, it suggests, by the wingman's exaggerated respect for his senior colleague, Lt Col Kohntopp. Guardian Link

The Sun article, complete with pictures of the remains of the Scimitar can be found at Sun Link

Seems pretty clear evidence that the MoD were adamant that the US (Amateur Weekend Warrior) pilots were responsible for the death of Matty Hull as well as the deaths of the two wholly innocent Iraqi civilians waving a large white flag about whom nobody seems to care - since they probably weren't even white.


Incidentally, Colonel Kohntopp is a commercial pilot as well - bear this in mind the next time you consider flying with a US airline

 

[jpmonkey69]

Seems pretty clear evidence that the MoD were adamant that the US (Amateur Weekend Warrior) pilots were responsible for the death of Matty Hull as well as the deaths of the two wholly innocent Iraqi civilians waving a large white flag about whom nobody seems to care - since they probably weren't even white.

I'm guessing you didn't know that the US Reserve pilots have the same training as the regs?

So I wouldn't say amateur weekend warrior, as that is not what you'd call a reg on their first sortie.

 

[Turbanation]

I cant belive that the ones that killed the brit dude are trainer pilots now!

 

[NathanE]

There was a really cocky yank on ITV news last night sprouting off loads of crap about the British whilst defending his guilty top-gun buddie who lives in the same town. I think one his remarks was "we saved you in WW2 whilst you were sucking your thumb". Now I know ITV probably selected this one out of many other interviews because he comments were so controversial but it really wound me up. How ignorant and arrogant can one person be, all at the same time?

British pilots are taught not to engage without 1) approval, and 2) knowing what they are shooting at. They also don't make "yee-HAW!" style comments whilst killing people as though they are playing a computer game.

The Pentagon didn't want to release the tape because they were afraid it would leak information about the A-10 Tankbuster's capabilities to their enemies. What capabilities is that exactly? The fact that it has no far-zoom camera to see exactly what it is about to shoot at? What a crap plane

 

[AJUK]

There was a really cocky yank on ITV news last night sprouting off loads of crap about the British whilst defending his guilty top-gun buddie who lives in the same town. I think one his remarks was "we saved you in WW2 whilst you were sucking your thumb".

At times like that I always remind them that the truth of the matter is that we warned the world and they ignored us leading to Great Britain being alone as the only country taking a stand against tyranny, all the other countries in Europe either collaborated or capitulated and the Yanks weren't sucking their thumbs they had their fingers up their butts!

EDIT: That said, not all Americans are so ignorant, in my experience the ones I have met have all been very friendly, well educated, well mannered and on the whole very nice people.

 

[Rebel=UK=]

There was a really cocky yank on ITV news last night sprouting off loads of crap about the British whilst defending his guilty top-gun buddie who lives in the same town. I think one his remarks was "we saved you in WW2 whilst you were sucking your thumb". Now I know ITV probably selected this one out of many other interviews because he comments were so controversial but it really wound me up. How ignorant and arrogant can one person be, all at the same time?

Yes i seen that and it really got to me.

 

[NathanE]

The irony is, if the US didn't help us out in WW2 they wouldn't be here today as Nazi Germany was actively researching nuclear weapons... (the same research and scientists that the USA ultimately poached to develop their own after the war)

The idiot on ITV news was implying that the USA and Nazi Germany could have co-existed peacefully...

 

[daveyj27]

EDIT: That said, not all Americans are so ignorant, in my experience the ones I have met have all been very friendly, well educated, well mannered and on the whole very nice people.

Agreed for sure. Sadly, as with everything else, it's the minority idiots who get news coverage and give everyone else a bad name too.

One of the absolute coolest and most decent blokes I have ever had the honour of meeting is one of my wife's elderly relatives. He's a US Army WWII vet, and he (obviously) spent a lot of time over here back then. He loves Britain and the British "spirit", and has none of that "We saved your butts" attitude. He has the kind of manner and dignified air around him that almost makes me call him "sir" out of automatic respect. On top of all that, he still has his cheeky sense of humour despite being pretty unwell nowadays. I'm very proud to be related to that man, albeit by marriage.

 

[NathanE]

I thought I made myself quite clear :/

"Now I know ITV probably selected this one out of many other interviews because he comments were so controversial but it really wound me up. How ignorant and arrogant can one person be, all at the same time?"

I'm not anti-yank at all. This one guy on ITV news ****** me off though.

 

[daveyj27]

This one guy on ITV news ****** me off though.

You're always going to come across idiots in life Nathan, that guy obviously has a clear-cut case of moronitis.

 

[Murf]

The irony is, if the US didn't help us out in WW2 they wouldn't be here today as Nazi Germany was actively researching nuclear weapons... (the same research and scientists that the USA ultimately poached to develop their own after the war)

The idiot on ITV news was implying that the USA and Nazi Germany could have co-existed peacefully...

The Americans got hold of the German rocket engineers like Von Brawn (sp?), who were part of the V2 program who helped them with their space program. The Manhattan Project (nukes) was off their own back if I remember correctly.

I really think people are being way too quick to indulge in some America bashing. I've been guilty of it in the past, but when you consider the amount of equipment the yanks have in the field over there, and the countless sorties that go right I think we're being way too harsh on an isolated incident (it doesn't happen every day, does it) where the pilots were given the green light and showed genuine remorse.

I'd much rather have the Americans on our side than not, even when mistakes like this do happen. Regardless of the selfish motivations of the American government I've never felt the need to question the intentions of regular American people.

 

[Shackley]

The Americans got hold of the German rocket engineers like Von Brawn (sp?), who were part of the V2 program who helped them with their space program. The Manhattan Project (nukes) was off their own back if I remember correctly.

Not so, as you will find if you check Wikipedia (or any other source) - The Manhattan Project refers to the project to develop the first nuclear weapons during World War II by the United States, the United Kingdom and Canada. The British had a very great deal to do with the early research into and development of nuclear weapons.

I really think people are being way too quick to indulge in some America bashing. I've been guilty of it in the past, but when you consider the amount of equipment the yanks have in the field over there, and the countless sorties that go right I think we're being way too harsh on an isolated incident (it doesn't happen every day, does it) where the pilots were given the green light and showed genuine remorse.

It is the very fact that the only reason that this incident ever came to light (despite the obstruction of the British MoD who consider the American Pilots to be blame) is because a British Soldier was killed that makes it so appalling.

Two American A-10 pilots, at least one of whom was on his first ever active mission shot up a couple of British Scimitar Armoured vehicles killing one British soldier and wounding a number of others. They also killed two Iraqi civilians who were waving a large white flag. They did this secure in the knowledge that the American Administration will not recognise the International Criminal Court and they would not be punished for their incompetence and stupidity.

How do you know how often these casual murders occur where it is only innocent Iraqi civilians who are killed or injured?

 

[Angilion]

At times like that I always remind them that the truth of the matter is that we warned the world and they ignored us leading to Great Britain being alone as the only country taking a stand against tyranny, all the other countries in Europe either collaborated or capitulated and the Yanks weren't sucking their thumbs they had their fingers up their butts!

EDIT: That said, not all Americans are so ignorant, in my experience the ones I have met have all been very friendly, well educated, well mannered and on the whole very nice people.

For the sake of accuracy, countries outside Europe were also taking a stand. The Soviet Union, for example, were crucial to the Nazis being defeated and paid an appalling price for it (estimated 20 million dead - there were too many to count). Australia and New Zealand, as usual, fought with the rest of the good guys. Many Indians fought under the British flag. I'm not sure when Canada entered the war, but they did. A few Americans came over as civilians and enlisted in the British military. A surprisingly large number of French soldiers managed to retreat to Great Britain and join the British military. Some Poles did the same.

Without Great Britain and the Soviet Union, they would all have been dead or defeated, but it was a joint effort.

The USA played a crucial part in the war, but if it wasn't for Great Britain, the Soviet Union and all the others, the USA would have been in deep trouble by the late 1940s, finding itself at war with pretty much the rest of the world under the control of fanatical regime(s) with a deep hatred of the USA and better military technology than the USA. Even then, the USA sold help to Great Britain, taking cash and massive technology advances in payment, and still only joined the war when it was attacked first. It was enlightened self-interest at best, not heroic altruism for those silly backward old countries in Europe.

 

[Inquisitor]

How do you know how often these casual murders occur where it is only innocent Iraqi civilians who are killed or injured?

So acting on false information in the belief that it's accurate is murder?

 

[Stiff_Cookie]

Two American A-10 pilots, at least one of whom was on his first ever active mission shot up a couple of British Scimitar Armoured vehicles killing one British soldier and wounding a number of others. They also killed two Iraqi civilians who were waving a large white flag. They did this secure in the knowledge that the American Administration will not recognise the International Criminal Court and they would not be punished for their incompetence and stupidity.

How do you know how often these casual murders occur where it is only innocent Iraqi civilians who are killed or injured?

DIdnt one pilots make the comment that they were going to jail? Why would he make a comment like that if he knew he woud 'get away with it'? And what does a pilots first mission have to do with anything? Everyone has to have a first. Do you even know what your saying or have a clue what your talking about?