Using front surrounds for music?

Prophet

Prophet

Prophet

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Currently I'm using an old 2.1 Cambridge Audio system on my PC for all PC related sounds and music. They do a pretty good job but I'd like upgrade to a better system.

I'll be revamping my surround setup soon with a new amp and speakers wich will be hooked up to the PC for Blueray/DivX playback and wondered if AV amps still miss the necessary quality to provide decent music playback.
 
AV Amps and PC's do have 1 interesting side effect, you can go digital(hdmi or sp/dif), and many A/V amps will have better D/A's than the PC's motherboard or soundcard. Although if you want the best sound from games you'll need a motherboard or soundcard which does dolby live :/. While AV receivers still generally sound worse for music than stereo separates, you havent given much info on your current setup.. 2.1 systems rarely perform as well as stereo separates either, unless its just a 2.0 system with a sub added :P.
 
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The 2.1 I'm currently using are PC speakers and not seperates. Very small speakers and a small sub. Good sound IMO but not Hi-Fi.

I have the use of an M-Audio Firewire 410 exernal sound 'card' or I can go optical/HDMI.
 
Orange Peel said:
The 2.1 I'm currently using are PC speakers and not seperates. Very small speakers and a small sub. Good sound IMO but not Hi-Fi.

I have the use of an M-Audio Firewire 410 exernal sound 'card' or I can go optical/HDMI.
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To be honest, I would expect any AV receiver to be able to match or exceed any PC Speaker package, even though they are not "optimized" for music. AV receivers often get compared to stereo amps at a similar budget, and then chastised for poor stereo performance. But I would say that in your situation, your not comparing a midrange stereo amp... so the receiver's got less to compare with :). It should sound fine.

With the sound card, external's can be pretty good, but its easy enough to compare if you already have an spdif or hdmi cable :) Just use which ever you like the best.

You didnt mention a budget, but IMHO at any budget, try to audition the speakers personally, as the speakers will have the largest influence on the final sound of the setup. Once you have found the speakers you want, its fairly easy to pick an amp thats within your budget. The amp you select will "tune" the sound, but it can never remove the "character & presentation" given by the speakers.
 
Heres my audio setup thats all connected up to my pc using just the 3 analog connections to my xfi xtreme music card... But before the end of the year Im going to take it away from my pc, upgrade my front speakers to some high-end speakers and have my first home cinema/music setup

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Also if your really like great sound quality, you should look to spend 2 to 3 times more on the speakers compared to the reciever..

Thats what Im going to try to achieve with my setup, spending about £1400 on upgrading my fronts, cos AV amp cost £550 when new, so I should have a nice balance and will have about the best sound that my amp can achieve. I'll prob upgrade the rears a few months after upgrading the fronts, but Im not too fussed about the rears cos they will only be used in movies for the surround effects.
 
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Phil2008 said:
Also if your really like great sound quality, you should look to spend 2 to 3 times more on the speakers compared to the reciever..

Thats what Im going to try to achieve with my setup, spending about £1400 on upgrading my fronts, cos AV amp cost £550 when new, so I should have a nice balance and will have about the best sound that my amp can achieve. I'll prob upgrade the rears a few months after upgrading the fronts, but Im not too fussed about the rears cos they will only be used in movies for the surround effects.
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Getting good front speakers will really make a difference for general every day music use, the rear effects speakers are a lot more "ambient" and less critical in my opinion. A decent centre can improve the focus of dialog to the TV though. I bought myself a pair of Mission 753F's when they were "just released" back in the early 90's, and they are still going strong. Infact I have gone from driving them with a single integrated amp, to an AV pre/processor and monoblocks, so now infact the speakers are considerably cheaper than the amps... but they sure make good music, and envolving home cinema too :). Some speakers only deliver their full potential when driven by amps considerably "over budget". But as a starting point, spending the majority of budget on speakers you love does make it an interesting route with loads of potential for upgrading the electronics.
 
Corasik said:
spending the majority of budget on speakers you love does make it an interesting route with loads of potential for upgrading the electronics.
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But you should always spend 2-3 times more on the speakers to bring out the best sound quaity the reciever has to offer.

Quoted from someone on AVForums.............Another way to look at it is that it would not be worth spending £3k+ on speakers for a £500 reciever since you will get better performance improvements by investing in a better reciever. Or you would not spend £3k on a reciever for a set of £500 speakers as would be better to get improved speakers. It is crazy to spend less on the speakers than the reciever, if your really into your audio and love great sound quality.

Edit: My speakers were about £100 per pair when I bought them about 10yrs ago, and they do sound great with the £300 subwoofer I bought last year, but the speakers are holding my AV amp back quite badly in sound quality terms, if these ppl are correct by saying you should spend more on the speakers.
 
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But without this forum I would have never considered upgrading my logitech z680 5.1 pc speakers to a av amp and bookshelf speakers setup. I had never heard of a AV amp this time last year and it was very daunting upgrading, buy ppl here helped me every step of the way. I would never go back to the tinny, boomy and unnatural sound of pc speakers. But the problem Ive got now is, Im spending more and more money on my Audio setup. so in a way I hate this forum...hehe
 
I hear what your saying Phil.. But if you bought those MA RX6s' and fell in love with the sound.. would you not be tempted to see how good they might sound with a £1400 quid receiver (or even a Pre/Processor + PowerAmps) next time you got bitten my upgradeitis :P.

The 753F's are case in point, they sound absolutely rubbish when driven by underpowered amps, the bass just flops around, and the top end is so smooth its boring, But slap in a detailed amp with plenty of power, and the bass tightens up, and the tops are much more lively.

When I bought the 753F I would guess they were 3 times the price of the amp I had at the time.. Its just I've upgraded the electronics over the years, and the 753's just keep getting better, so I've had no real desire to change them :) (Not to mention my GF thinks they sound good too, and thats a good thing considering they are moderately large floorstanders)
 
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Corasik said:
I hear what your saying Phil.. But if you bought those MA RX6s' and fell in love with the sound.. would you not be tempted to see how good they might sound with a £1400 quid receiver (or even a Pre/Processor + PowerAmps) next time you got bitten my upgradeitis :P.
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Saying that tho,, where do you stop, cos then you would be wanting better speakers to see what a £1400 amp could really do.

Corasik said:
The 753F's are case in point, they sound absolutely rubbish when driven by underpowered amps, the bass just flops around, and the top end is so smooth its boring, But slap in a detailed amp with plenty of power, and the bass tightens up, and the tops are much more lively.
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I dont know if this is true but if the speakers are too powerful for the amp, you risk damaging the speakers. The RX6s Im hopefully getting are a max of 125watts, and my amp is 100watts per channel, so it will have plenty of power to drive them, the speakers would prob have more quality to give, how much I dont know. But like I said where do you stop.

Corasik said:
When I bought the 753F I would guess they were 3 times the price of the amp I had at the time.. Its just I've upgraded the electronics over the years, and the 753's just keep getting better, so I've had no real desire to change them :) (Not to mention my GF thinks they sound good too, and thats a good thing considering they are moderately large floorstanders)
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sound quality is a strange, cos everyones ears are diff, if something sounds good to your ears, it might not sound good to other ppls.

the speakers may not be inproving with every amp you buy, its prob the tone, bass ect is slightly diff on the amp, that makes you belive the sound quality is better, cos I have tweaked the tone and bass levels on my amp to make the speakers sound better then they are.

also the monitor audio speakers apparently sounds better with a warmer sounding amp like the denon or yamaha. So matching amp and speakers are really important to get the best out of both
 
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Nice speakers Corasik, just saw a pic, you sure you have enough drivers their:D the RX6s has only 2 drivers (midrange and a woofer) and a tweater. Bet your speakers need some serious power to drive them, I very much doubt my amp would drive them too great, mine must be a baby amp compared to your amp I bet:D

You say you have AV pre/processor and monoblocks, whats that? I guess I still have a fair bit to learn, but I think my knowledge is slowly growing about this stuff.


Edit: the last quote I made saying "the speakers may not be inproving with every amp you buy ect...." I take that back, cos it would take a serious amp to power those speakers and to drive them well". I should have done my research into your speakers, before posting that comment, sorry.
 
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Yeah, the biggest "Problem" with the 753F's is their 6ohm nominal impedance, a lot of amps are rated with 8 ohm loads. I've been using Audiolab amps on them for quite a few years now, as they complement each other, Started with a 60W 8000S, added a 100W 8000P (stereo power amp), and finally replaced that with 2x8000M (125W mono power amp). The mono amp really does deliver, infact it can sustain 200W into 4 ohms with minimal distortion.

When I went from stereo to surround, I replaced my 8000S with a Tag AV32R which is a dolby (and dts) decoder, coupled with a preamp... Basically its a digital decoder combined with a volume control. Monoblocks are simply mono power amps, no volume controls (that handled by the pre/processor). Im using 1 mono amp per speaker (so 5 boxes containing 1 mono amp each). My sub is a really rather rubbish self powered box, but its only there to provide a bit of extra rumble during Sci/fi (starship engines!) movies. The drivers on the speakers are fairly small, and while they do drop to around 35hz, the roar of a starship engine is a bit much for them, so the sub just "assists" :)

Actually for a while before I had the Tag, I had a Yamaha DSP-E800 (I believe that was the model), which was a surround processor, pre-amplifier, and power amp for the centre and surrounds, but had no amp for the front stereo speakers). I quite enjoyed the performance of that processor, but replaced it with the Tag when I managed to get my hands on a second hand AV32R :)

BTW, while I've been very happy with my speakers and amps... should the day come when the speakers are simply too old, and mebee worn out!... Monitor Audio speakers would be pretty high on my audition list :)
 
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Phil, Its really hard to know when to stop, especially with speakers. Speakers have so much influence on the final "tone" and presentation of the sound, while to me the electronics is there to get the most out of the speakers :). While its true that a 500 quid amp can do a pretty good job of driving a £1500 pair of speakers... and probably give a far superior sound than £500 speakers with a £1500 amp... If you find speakers you really love, you can throw a lot money into amps, and source to get the last bit of performance from the speakers.

But your right, there will come a point where you'll audition a higher level of speakers, and find a new model to fall in love with :).

If your budget is limited, then the speakers 3x the cost of the amp is a usefull rule of thumb... but if you have an unlimited budget, I have no problem with spending equal on amps and speakers, or even exceeding the value of the speakers, if you find a really good sounding model.

Anyway, have wandered seriously offtopic..... to the OP... You should be able to move into AV with a fairly budget system, and still knock the socks off your "PC Speaker" package for music :) Love of Music & Movies definatly has a habit of causing upgradeitis.. just like PC building :)
 
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If I could afford it I would buy the RX8 with the extra woofer, but I guess with using a sub you dont really need The RX8 with the added woofer,, but still it would be nice to have..hehe. But when I do this project I hoping to carry out later in the year, I'll be spending about £2000 with the speakers, getting a nice big tv and stand, and redecorating my room at the same time, so the RX8s are out of the question:mad:

Hopefully I wont have the urge to upgrade for a few yrs, but like you say, I'll prob want to upgrade my amp then, if I do as you put it "fall in love with the speakers" to see if theres anymore quality to be had from them. at t the moment Im going by peoples reviews of the RS6s, and everyone gives them the tumbs up for superb sound quality, but they have just been discontinued and the RX6s are the replacements for the RS6s and apparently sound even better:D

Heres a pic of the RX6s

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and the RX8s
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Anyway back on the topic..... If you have £100 -£200 to spend either buy a good 2nd hand AV amp, like I did last yr, or buy a stereo amp. But if you have £300 -£500+ buy a AV amp, as it will blow the socks off a pc speaker setup anyday. The reason for this is being, a AV amp has meny more features and has more channels then on a stereo amp, so this is why you have to spend so much more on a AV amp to get decent SQ.. People say that the general rule is an AV reciever will perform to a similar level as a stereo amp that is around a quarter of the price" But Im guessing if you get a good 2nd hand AV amp, without HDMI these will perform even better

I bought mine for £130 off ebay last yr, and was £550 when new in 2006 -2007, I think my amp would perform more like a £300 stereo amp, cos it hasnt the HDMI connections, that all AV amps have nowadays.
 
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Off topic a sec again.. ppl saying you should spend 2-3 times more on the speakers, does this count for both stereo and av amps? cos if my av amp is equal to a £300 stereo amp, that means my speakers should be between £600 -£900. My floorstanders without the centre speaker will cost £900,, so if thats the case Im not going too overboard on the speakers, but Im guessing the amp will be holding the speakers back a tad tho?

ARRGGHH This malarkey fries my head:D:eek:
 
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