Vettel leaving Ferrari

Soldato
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This is such a weanie response. It's discussion forum, mate, make your own arguments.
Weanie? Mate?

Nope.

I said "Look through the recent history of Ferrari drivers, when have they ever had two genuinely top tier drivers they've let race. That's not their way; they have the strongest first-second driver setup of any team and have done for years. Their way is to get in a really good driver, and then fill the other seat with someone from the mid tier and make them play the team game. They want some one good enough to score points, but not good enough to challenge Leclerc and cause friction in the team." I haven't contradicted that. Seb was brought in as their top driver; Kimi was run as their second driver.

What do you disagree with? Do you think Ferrari are typically running two top drivers? Irvine? Barrichello? Massa? These were the best drivers of their time? Do you think they don't run a clear first-second driver policy? Or that they don't do it to a greater degree than other teams?
Did I mention Irvine or Barrichello or in fact any other driver? No, then why drag them into it?

I disagree with you, not Ferrari's hiring/firing policy.

The simple fact is you are claiming Sainz has been hired as a wingman, a mid tier driver, and I'm disagreeing with you because I think you are wrong. Better informed people agree, and because we share this sentiment I'm a 'weanie' and according to you this is me 'not making my own arguments'? What the holy ****? :p

Grow up, I used to actually like your posts but I'll make sure to quote this very thread when the mid tier wingman beats your golden boy :)
 

JRS

JRS

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Would love to have him back ar Red Bull

Yeah, but would he go anywhere without being a clear number 1 driver (enforced by contract)? Not going to happen at RBR while Max is there. Not going to happen at Mercedes while Lewis is there. Didn't happen at Ferrari (or if it did, he was clearly incapable of meeting his end of the deal). And I doubt that he'll settle for a mid-grid car.
 

fez

fez

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Vettel is just struggling with being an above average driver in an above average car, competing against top class drivers in top class cars.

Your basic job as an F1 driver is to beat your teammate. Vettel has been outshone by too many of his teammates to be considered world class anymore.
 
Soldato
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Vettel is just struggling with being an above average driver in an above average car, competing against top class drivers in top class cars.

Your basic job as an F1 driver is to beat your teammate. Vettel has been outshone by too many of his teammates to be considered world class anymore.

Some of us were saying at the time that his four WDCs were flattering to deceive. ;)
 
Soldato
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F1 is slowly becoming unviable I think.

Costs are way to high, safety and "eco" stuff has taken a lot of the excitement out of it and they are losing viewers all the time. Some of the drivers just come across as bored as well.

It's getting boring and soon it will fade in to obscurity with Formula E.
 
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Caporegime
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F1 is slowly becoming unviable I think.

Costs are way to high, safety and "eco" stuff has taken a lot of the excitement out of it and they are losing viewers all the time. Drivers have become corporate puppets and aren't allowed to speak their mind anymore.
Welcome to the last decade mate.

Cost cap is coming along with a regulation reset in 2022. It was supposed to be 2021 but The 'Rona stopped that. The ECO stuff is, at the moment anyway, sadly a necessity. The Sport has become so expensive that manufacturers are now trying to leverage some of their F1 research into road cars, justifying F1 as an element of R&D to lighten the budget. Mercedes reckon they got as much as £2 Billion in publicity from winning the WDC & WCC previously, some amount of marketing they'd never sign off on via conventional means.

It's also reckoned the F1 team, minus the Powertrain development, is actually run at almost break even or the loss is relatively small. Now that engines have been frozen until 2025 this number should also come down. Mercedes F1 engine has a Thermal Efficiency of around 60%. That is 60% of the potential energy in the fuel is used. Such a figure is unheard of for any Engine, never mind one that's knocking on the door of 1,000HP. They're more powerful, have more torque and are more efficient than the V10's and V8's of yesteryear. They don't even sound that bad these days!
 
Soldato
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No one cares about how many eco points the engine has though, the F1 crowd aren't a bunch of vegans. They want to hear screaming V12s and watch dangerous overtakes, Hamilton chin Vettel in the pit lane, the refuelling guy accidentally set fire to himself, etc :p

Fact is the sport is slowly dying and they are killing it themselves.
 
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Caporegime
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No one cares about how many eco points the engine has though, the F1 crowd aren't a bunch of vegans. They want to hear screaming V12s and watch dangerous overtakes, Hamilton chin Vettel in the pit lane, the refuelling guy accidentally set fire to himself, etc :p

Fact is the sport is slowly dying and they are killing it themselves.
The board and the companies making the engines do, believe me. Renault said they'd quit if the V8's continued, Honda said they wouldn't commit with V8's too. The current trend is towards hybrid engines, F1 engines are hybrid engines. They get to leverage some of that to pay for their F1 program.
 
Caporegime
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The board and the companies making the engines do, believe me. Renault said they'd quit if the V8's continued, Honda said they wouldn't commit with V8's too. The current trend is towards hybrid engines, F1 engines are hybrid engines. They get to leverage some of that to pay for their F1 program.
The only company that makes V12's these days in F1 is Ferrari. Everyone else is moving away from large capacity Normally Aspirated engines.
 
Soldato
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F1 is a evolving motorsport. If you want V12's watch replays of the 80s.
There weren't many V12 in the 1980s, and only one was a race winner (Ferrari in 1989). Only five other teams ran V12s at all in the 80s: Alfa-Romeo (80, 81, 82), Ligier Matra (81, 82), Osella Alfa Romeo (83, 84) and Larrousse Lamborghini (89), none of them doing especially well.



In fact there weren't all that many V12s in F1 history and with surprisingly little success. In the 1950s there were only a smattering of V12 Ferraris, with a couple of races for OSCA (F2 engine) and Maserati. The first V12 entered in the 60s was in 1964 by Honda with Maserati, Weslake, BRM and Ferrari V12s joining in the 3 litre era from 1966. Only BRM and Matra ran V12s in the 70s, with Alfa Romeo starting in 1979. I've mentioned the 80s above, and a few more sprung up in the early 90s (Honda, Yamaha and Porsche joining Ferrari and Lamborghini) and Ferrari continued doing OK until 1995.

Ayrton Senna in the McLaren Honda of 1991 is the only ever winner of the driver's championship with a V12. It is also the only ever winner of the constructor's championship with a V12.
 
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JRS

JRS

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Ayrton Senna in the McLaren Honda of 1991 is the only ever winner of the driver's championship with a V12. It is also the only ever winner of the constructor's championship with a V12.

True. But flattened V12s won a few ;) Ferrari 312T in various evolutions - constructors champion car from '75 to '77 with two drivers titles, and both titles again in '79. Flat-12 engine, but not a boxer - rather a 180° V.
 
Soldato
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I didn't say they didn't. ;)

Although the width of the flat 12 was a hindrance when it came to designing their ground effect car.

Ferrari first raced a flat 12 in the 60s. The only other decent flat 12 was run by Alfa Romeo ran from 1976 to 1979, even winning a race in 1978 with one of F1's most famous cars; the fan car.

Apparently Tecno (no, me neither) raced a flat 12 in 1972 and 1973. The only effort I know of was Suburu's embarrassing entry of 1990 (albeit made by Motori Moderni).
 
Soldato
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I agree. F1 has become very boring and predictable.

The problem is though, this can only partially be resolved by rule changes, unless they become exceptionally prescriptive.

Things like fuel saving for example - simulations etc. are so advanced these days, these guys are honing on in the precise optimum point between 'use more fuel and go fast' vs 'more fuel weight slows us down'. The only way around this is to mandate that they all start with waaaaay more fuel than they could possibly use, so that there is no balance left to achieve. Tyres would be even more difficult - again, even if they could go mad, these days they won't because they'll be running computer sims telling them the optimum balance between wear and lap times - they won't go pumping in qualy speed laps if it'll hurt them in laptimes later.

The sport is getting to the point where it is so advanced and so focused in on achieving optimum solutions, that it's going to struggle to provide more excitement whatever you do. You'll be in the realms of artificially manipulating things and the purists won't like that either.

None of this would be changed by making the cars noisier and less fuel efficient. The boring factor comes from how 'perfect' they can plan everything these days - that's why the exciting races are the ones where unpredictable things go wrong and it upsets the plans.
 
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