Weighing Scales - Physics Question!!

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I was pondering this on the train this morning...

Why does a set of scales display a heavier figure for you when on carpet? Whats the physics behind the scenes here, i struggled to see how the force acting on the face of the scales was changed by the surface its sat on?

Is this not screwing with newtons laws??
 
Malt_Vinegar said:
I was pondering this on the train this morning...

Why does a set of scales display a heavier figure for you when on carpet? Whats the physics behind the scenes here, i struggled to see how the force acting on the face of the scales was changed by the surface its sat on?

Is this not screwing with newtons laws??

Because they measure the force between you and the scales.

Normally this is equal to the force between you and the erath, but a proportion of that is taken up by the 'springiness' of the carpet.

Thats what's off the top of my head (I think....)
 
thast about right visage, it is measureing the forcce between you and the ground, so if the ground is not firm but "springy" it wont give you the right weight (it would be the right weight if you wanted to know how heavy you are just on the "springy" thing though :D )
 
Visage said:
Because they measure the force between you and the scales.

Normally this is equal to the force between you and the erath, but a proportion of that is taken up by the 'springiness' of the carpet.

Thats what's off the top of my head (I think....)

Wont this result in a lower weight though not an increased one.
 
Malt_Vinegar said:
Why does a set of scales display a heavier figure for you when on carpet?
Never heard of this effect before. Must admit I thought it rubbish till google came up with an answer from New Scientist:

Put the scales on a deep carpet, however, and the scales sink into it, so the carpet supports the base, which prevents it from bending. This increases the distance between each fulcrum and the point at which its lever is loaded, so for the same force the lever moves further. Even a small increase in this distance can add several kilograms to the weight registered on the display.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2462
 
Visage said:
Because they measure the force between you and the scales.

Normally this is equal to the force between you and the erath, but a proportion of that is taken up by the 'springiness' of the carpet.

Thats what's off the top of my head (I think....)

Erm, surely everything has an equal and opposite reaction? They should display the exact same weight.
 
Samtheman1k said:
Erm, surely everything has an equal and opposite reaction? They should display the exact same weight.


Im not sure, TBH - my argument was a 'hand wavey' one to suggest that what the OP was suggesting was possible - it was hardly a rigorous proof.

For that you'd need to draw out all the bodies involved - the floor, the carpet, the scales and the person, assign a variable to the spring constant of the carpet, write down equations for the net forces on all the objects, and solve the equations (given that, at equilibrium the net force on each object is zero) to show what the net force on the scales would be in terms of the carpet's spring constant.

As a sanity check, as the SC tends to zero, the value on the scales should tend to the 'actual' weight of the person.

Its not hard, you just need to be through, to ensure you hevent missed any forces. Anyone with A-level physics or Mechanics could do it....
 
Samtheman1k said:
Erm, surely everything has an equal and opposite reaction? They should display the exact same weight.
Perhaps, IF the scales have a perfect mechanism. But they don't.

If you take a fairly high quality set of scales (say, the £1500 scales used at a supermarket checkout), and put a weight on them, then add a bit more, then add a bit more, up to the maximum the scale can read, then you progressively take the weights off again in the same amounts, you should get an identical set of readings, shouldn't you. But you won't. Or rather, the vast bulk of the time, you won't. It's called a linearity and hysteris test, and is part of the verification process that every commercial scale has to go thorugh before being certified as legal to trade.

If you put a calibrated weight, say exactly 7.5Kg, onto the scale, then take it off, and repeat that three or four times, you should get a set of identical readings. But guess what? You wont, or nearly always won't. Again, it's part of the certification process. Oh, and the reading you get will also be likely to vary a bit depending on where (front left, back centre, back right, dead centre, etc) you put that weight. That .... yup, you guessed, is another part of the certification process.

While doing that verification test, the verifier will also be looking for very small degrees of inaccuracy. If, for example, a store has an air conditioning vent blowing directly onto the scale, it's possible it'll be enough to prevent a valid reading. So can anyone leaning on the checkout, or walking by, or the store's door opening or closing, or ...... and so on.

Domestic scales are not made to anything remotely like the standard of these retail scales (let alone those used to measure drug quantities in a lab, for instance), and the mechanism is incredibly crude in comparison. For instance, you are extremely unlikely to be able to get a stable reading at all on one of these commercial scales, unless it is on a firm, stable (and usually level) base. Put it on a carpet and you quite possibly won't get a reading at all.

Put all that together, and you may get an idea of why a reading from a domestic scale is little more than a licked-finger in the wind estimate of weight. The mere fact that the person standing on the scale is incapable of standing perfectly still means that the scale mechanism MUST be resistant to variations caused by that movement, so when you step on it, it takes a spot reading at some point and, assuming it's digital, displays that. If it isn't digital, then in addition to the lack of refinement caused by the weighing mechanism (which will be electrical in those retail scales, taken by the change in resistance of the metal under stress in the load cell), you have gross inaccuracies caused by the needle, and the scale it's displayed against.

Basically, visage's hypothesis was correct, accompanied by the fact that the scale mechanism is, essentially, crap.
 
Geoff said:
Basically, visage's hypothesis was correct, accompanied by the fact that the scale mechanism is, essentially, crap.

I think that sums it up! What I was getting at, was that if you had some 'perfect' scales, then the weights should be the same regardless of where it is used (ignoring gravitational variations of course!). The carpet isn't acting as a spring to lower/raise the weight as it should be irrelevant, mearly the different surface, as you say, is causing a change in operation of the mechanism...rather than some fantastic physics breakthrough!
 
Visage said:
Im not sure, TBH - my argument was a 'hand wavey' one to suggest that what the OP was suggesting was possible - it was hardly a rigorous proof.

For that you'd need to draw out all the bodies involved - the floor, the carpet, the scales and the person, assign a variable to the spring constant of the carpet, write down equations for the net forces on all the objects, and solve the equations (given that, at equilibrium the net force on each object is zero) to show what the net force on the scales would be in terms of the carpet's spring constant.

As a sanity check, as the SC tends to zero, the value on the scales should tend to the 'actual' weight of the person.

Its not hard, you just need to be through, to ensure you hevent missed any forces. Anyone with A-level physics or Mechanics could do it....

the type of surface the scales are on wont affect the weight shown by the scales at all provided the scale mechanism is not hindered by the surface. Once the scales have 'sunk' into the carpet they are not moving - its just the same as if they were on concrete.

The news scientist explanation of the mechanism being hindered by the carpet makes sense.
 
On a 3000d retail scale commonly found in shops the tolerances below are allowed. Typically they are 15kg x 0.005kg the tolerances for this capacity are below. The units are tested by using 0.5g weights, a tenth of increment.

d = divisions
e = increments

0d < 500d (0.000kg < 2.500kg)- 0.5e (2.5g)
500d < 2000d (2.500kg < 10.000kg) - 1.0e (5g)
2000d > (10.000kg) - 1.5e (7.5g)

The hysteris and linearity points are vaild however if the until displays more 10e of error at half load it will fail, unless it is a re-verification in which case the tolerances are doubled.

With regards to the carpet issue, this is normally found in cheap and nasty bathroom scales that bottom out and flex.
 
Lagz said:
the type of surface the scales are on wont affect the weight shown by the scales at all provided the scale mechanism is not hindered by the surface. Once the scales have 'sunk' into the carpet they are not moving - its just the same as if they were on concrete.

The news scientist explanation of the mechanism being hindered by the carpet makes sense.

If the scales were placed on a flat concrete surface then the base isn't supported (there are usually a set of small feet which raise the unit up) and so bends slightly under the weight being measured. Placing on thick carpet supports the entire underside of the scales and so prevents the casing distortion.
 
drew said:
On a 3000d retail scale commonly found in shops ......
Commonly, but not always. There's 10Kg and 14Kg (well, 9.995 and 13.995) too.

drew said:
d = divisions
e = increments
d= actual scale interval
e=verification scale interval.

And, on Class III scales, it's usual for d=e.

drew said:
0d < 500d (0.000kg < 2.500kg)- 0.5e (2.5g)
500d < 2000d (2.500kg < 10.000kg) - 1.0e (5g)
2000d > (10.000kg) - 1.5e (7.5g)
Yup. Standard MPE (Maximum Permissible Error).

Oh, and don't forget that MPE at zero load is half the standard 0.5e, in other words, 0.25e, albeit that it needs to be measured with a zero-tracking load applied, not actually at zero. And since you're using 0.1e (0.5g) trim (delta) weights, and you therefore can't measure 0.25e, only 0.2e or 0.3e, and by the time you get to 0.3e, you're already outside MPE. So, the effective MPE is actually 0.2e.

drew said:
The hysteris and linearity points are vaild however if the until displays more 10e of error at half load it will fail, unless it is a re-verification in which case the tolerances are doubled.
Well, according to the type approvals I'm familiar with, it generally doubles once the scale is "in use", which is generally specified as 30 days. I guess that boild down to the same thing.

However, the phraseology of the rest of that has me a bit tangled. If the scale goes outside MPE at any point, not just half load, it'd fail. And the load points checked vary very much depending on the way in which the self-verification body chooses to interpret the laws, which are rather inexactly phrased.

For instance, if the test points included 1Kg and 2.5Kg, and both values were just within MPE, a line drawn between the two would show that there are values just under 2Kg which are not within MPE, due to the doubling of MPE at 2Kg. In which case, you either refine the test by adding extra test points to resolve the issue, or you fail the device.

Any, this is getting just a tad off-topic, and I'd guess most people, if they got thid far, are saying "Huh?" :confused:
 
Alibaba99 said:
If the scales were placed on a flat concrete surface then the base isn't supported (there are usually a set of small feet which raise the unit up) and so bends slightly under the weight being measured. Placing on thick carpet supports the entire underside of the scales and so prevents the casing distortion.

The scales will be DESIGNED to have the load supported by the feet. Putting it on carpet is far more likely to distort the casing and reduce the accuracy even further.
 
Normally our TSO chooses 3 weights that fall into the three bands of MPE.

I'm a little shady on the full verification process as it doesn't really interest me that much, especially with companies able to stamp their own equipment. Plus when he comes i leave him to it.

We looked at self verification and its a pain for not much gain.

The half load point was just a reference to your post. I'm well aware the scale will fail if it goes outside of the MPE at any point.
 
drew said:
Normally our TSO chooses 3 weights that fall into the three bands of MPE.
:eek:

I'm not an expert on the legalities of this, but unless I'm mistaken, if this is a full verification, the legislation requires at least five points, including min and max loads, and something at or just below the MPE changeover points (i.e. 500 and 2000e, for a 3000e Class III scale), for linearity and hysteresis.
drew said:
......

We looked at self verification and its a pain for not much gain.
It certainly can be. I guess it depends on who you are, and what your needs are. It's not just the legal compliance. There are commercial implications, too, especially for EPoS suppliers.
 
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