What defines a 'big club' and how well would Scottish teams do in the Premier League?

[Nemeses]

Discussion moved here from Transfers Thread.

Errrr, Arsenal are bigger than Liverpool and Spurs etc, Forbes say so.

Well even though Arsenal are rated bigger than the pool, I think they are very similar in size, but I do think both clubs are a lot bigger than the spuds, Arsenal and spurs where of similar size pre AW, Arsene no matter what people say about him took us from a big english club to a huge worlds wide club. (and even if people don't want to acknowledge that its very true), pre AW liverpool were a lot bigger than us, that's not true anymore

(One other thing, the only real way to gauge clubs size is the way Forbes does by the numbers as they don't lie)

 

[Nemeses]

Club size does not equal success tho and in the likes if arsenal's case is very true.

Historically arsenal have always been a 2 season possibly 3 season wonder at best and as far as I'm aware have never came close to dominating English or European football the wayan Utd and Liverpool have done on numerous occasions in the past.

I never once said it did, but Liverpool have never won the premiership, and that shows how far that club has fallen, a club like liverpool should have won it by now. (and no i'm not saying any club has the right to win it)

And for 3/5 years we did dominate the prem, only one other club can really say that I ignore chelsea as they never build but buy titles, which i know may sound bitter buts its not, when they do win the prem it never bugs me, as I really don't care when its them, if they ever built a team, (just once and won the title i would feel differently but they don't ..)

I should maybe add if i was not a Arsenal fan i would have been a pool fan, always liked em always will ..I just love Arsenal )

 

[Nemeses]

in context rangers were in the lowest tier of European football and playing essentially pub teams or sunday league football at best and every other weekend had the highest attendance in british football and took qpprox 300k+ to a european final less than 10 years ago and celtic have an even bigger following in scotland ( hence why the EPL or FA is scared of the glasgow clubs going south ). realistically should a following fanbase not dictate a clubs universal appeal rather than stock price shares etc???

I certainly don't agree they scared, why would any league allow a different leagues club to join, which English clubs should then lose out to to the two Scottish clubs taking their place and even if they made the Prem 22 clubs so none lose out, two are still losing out because any championship club would argue that those spots should belong to them, thats the reason they not allowed to join the Prem has nothing to do with been scared.

If they wanted to join the English football leagues, they should start at the lowest tier (somewhere around tier 22) which they will never do.

 

[Nemeses]

shall we ignore cardiff, swansea etc??? along with the fact that the scots help bankroll the EPL with no benefit in return whatsoever???? of course we cant nor will go down that route shall we

No, where and when did they start in the english league, did they just appear in the prem I don't think so ..in fact they joined the Association football from day 1, so it its nothing like the same, and a pretty foolish argument to try use.

Welsh professional club teams traditionally played in the same leagues as their English counterparts,

Added: would love to know how the scots bankrolled the EPL?

 

[Nemeses]

ive already stated that any scottish club should start at the bottom. however no acceptance that the scots/welsh/irish etc bankroll the EPL with no benefit to there own leagues.

how does it work with sky cash. the team relegated from the EPL receives parachute payments for 1 year that total all home nations income from sky for 12 years?? yet you wont admit you have killed british football full stop?? after all it was less than 14 days ago the mighty struggled to draw with the scots who ironically have one of if not the worst squads and managers they have ever had in there history and sitting at an almost all time low

Wait you saying that because sky pay way more money to the english teams than they do the scots, that equals the scots bankrolling the epl, all i can say is wow.

Why should the scots get more, all clubs are paid at market value, if the scot prem was at a higher market value, they would get more but they not.

Go blame the rest of the world who would rather watch 2 teams fighting for 19th and 20th in the prem than watch any scottish football team.

The scots by the way they handled the ranger fisco (and believe me i don't like rangers) showed they are clueless, they killed scottish football, not just over that but everything they do, they handle it badly ( i'm not english im south african so no oar in the water for english or scottish side) i just look at it as it is.

If i had the choice of watching a low team in the prem v any scottish game i would choose that as it way more competitive, lest when you guys had rangers there was a bit of competition between the old firm , but now its a nothing one horse league that no body outside scotland cares about.

I'm not been mean, i'm just telling you how it is, i have never heard anyone say, can't wait to see Hearts v Celtic, it would more like who cares? ands there is the reason you get such a little money, Sky is a business they about making money, if the scottish league was more attractive and made money they would put more in, but they don't and that should tell you everything Sky is not a english company ..even though i think you think that's the reason.

#The money sky puts into football while obscene is based on business and business only, so everyone gets what the market dictates.

 

[Nemeses]

Is this still the transfer rumours or who has the biggest...club?....snip

Er yes cause the money you make dictates what you can buy/spend ( i say this with tongue in cheek ofc

 

[Nemeses]

You think if the Glasgow clubs had the Premier League money they'd rule British football? Absolutely no chance.

Agreed, and if they wanted to join at tier 22 I highly doubt they would be prevented, but then at best it would take 23 years before you appeared in the prem.

They'd both compete though, quite easily. They've both got massive support, huge grounds and a lot of heritage. What they both lack is money. Stick them in the PL and they'd thrive.

I love how Scots think they deserve to be in the top English league, never mind all the clubs that have been playing here for 100+ years, they don't count ..and i do believe as they stand now they would drop out the top 2 leagues before they recovered, they would not compete at PL or EPL levels.

I think the SFL failure is another thing they blame the English for, crazy!

 

[Nemeses]

Well listen chief, I'm English. I was answering the question posed (you know, it's at the top and is in the thread's title....."how well would Scottish teams do in the Premier League?".

You carry on your little rant though.

wow really was not meant like that, my point was they would not compete, it would take years to build up to prem league standards.

And maybe not you but most Scots who i have ever heard this discussion from DO BELIEVE they should just be allowed to join the prem.

 

[Nemeses]

Numbers define a big or small club, and i would guess a professional body like forbes would come up with the best formula to determine whats a big club.

1)History does not make you a big club
2)Lots of success will make you a big club.
3)Man city unlike Chelsea have paid their dues over the years so i don't begrudge them the cash they spend now, although i do think clubs like them could be the ruin of football

Fans opinions do not change the numbers, so it based on that.

Based on Turnover
Deloitte has once again released its Football Money League,
1. Manchester United
2. Barcelona
3. Real Madrid
4. Bayern Munich
5. Manchester City (figures not so trustworthy as they ***** by the owners)
6. Paris St-Germain
7. Arsenal
8. Chelsea
9. Liverpool
10. Juventus
12. Tottenham
18. West Ham
20. Leicester (one season blip me thinks)

Based on value Forbes' list of the most valuable football clubs
Position Clubs Bottom value Mid-point Top
1 Manchester United €3,004m €3,095m €3,186m
2 Real Madrid €2,895m €2,976m €3,057m
3 Barcelona €2,688m €2,765m €2,843m
4 Bayern Munich €2,367m €2,445m €2,523m
5 Manchester City €1,909m €1,979m €2,049m
6 Arsenal €1,882m €1,956m €2,029m
7 Chelsea €1,524m €1,599m €1,674m
8 Liverpool €1,260m €1,330m €1,400m
9 Juventus €1,158m €1,218m €1,277m
10 Tottenham Hotspur €978m €1,011m €1,044m
16 Leicester City €442m €462m €482m
17 Everton €431m €457m €483m

 

[Nemeses]

It's much harder to dominate in the prem now, than at any other time in the past, and certainly way harder than dominatinng in any other league

Take Spain, they only really got two big teams, and them maybe at the very most 3 others pushing, the rest just get hammered 3-0 +, and when one of them do win it's looked on as a huge upset.

In the prem almost any team can win lose in any given match, it is by far and away the most competitive league.

Arsenal certainly have done enough, have enough to be a big team, it's definitely one of the things that AW did for arsenal, he took them from a big English club to a huge world wide club, and that's no mean feat.

For my money big worldwide clubs in the EPL
Man Utd
Liverpool
Arsenal
-------
Then coming close due to huge money spent
Chelsea (no history zero class club)
Man City (spends mineboggling sums that always seem to avoid FFP)
Then we have the big English clubs
Spuds
Everton
Etc etc

No Scottish team of right now would win the EFL championship in this country,forget about the prem.

Most Scottish teams I think would be lucky to survive the EPL league one.

And this is not a baised view, just one that imo is honest, most people commenting here do it with biases to one side or the other.

The Scottish league is very weak right now, weaker than it has ever been (thanks in no small part to what happened to rangers, handled sooo badly) in a decades.

(To be clear if I had to choose a Scottish side to support it would most likely be Celitic and never Rangers, due to their disgusting supporters, and yes I have seen it first hand, no ones innocent here but boy theirs was the worst I have ever seen, and I have seen Russian supporters)

This is on the iPad, so all grammar failings is due it it

 

[Nemeses]

Th

Celtic would stroll the English Championship, and Aberdeen would be right up there fighting for promotion as well. There's certainly a difference in style between the countries, the lower leagues in England are far more physique based, whereas the Scottish Prem is work ethic and very tactical. The teams at the top end have no shortage of technique either, and most teams try to pass the ball out from the back these days.

The Scottish league certainly isn't particularly weak right now. It's a much higher standard, generally, than say a decade ago when Aberdeen last made it to the Europa League group stages. There are only at most two players from that Aberdeen team I'd have in the current Aberdeen squad.

The standard of the league has nothing to do with Rangers anyway, although I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of their fans.

there is zero competition, which will every single time make it a weaker league, a win by 30 points does not indicate a strong league it's a sure sign of a weak league.

 

[Nemeses]

In fairness, Celtic strolled it last season, but the two seasons before that we were right up with them until the last month. Outside that, it's as competitive a league as any I've ever seen. Aberdeen were comfortably second best last season yet still Hamilton beat us twice. Rangers finished far above where their ability merited, because it's a league where virtually anyone can beat anyone (except Celtic apparently).

Well sorry m8 then you not seen many, but people me included will always only see the best in what you like/support

 

[Nemeses]

I'm confident in predicting I've seen a lot more English football than you have seen Scottish. I'll make another prediction, that your opinion of Scottish football is based on pre-conceived prejudice rather than even a subjective opinion, let alone something quantifiable or backed up by facts and statistics.

Mmm this is going bit off track now, but don't see why you think I have something against Scottish football, or is it anyone that holds a different opinion must have some issue.

For the record I have zero issue prejudice or anything against Scottish football, in fact the very idea of having anything against any football league, sounds a bit silly tbh.

I'm just calling it as I see it, there is zero real competitions, no real money going in, think if it was a league that was exciting, people like sky would have inversted in it, but they did not. And it's not exciting because it not competitive in the least, did Rangers just not lose recently to a team of part timers

 

[Nemeses]

So the French league is a weak league? PSG won the season before last by 31 points.

Sky have invested in Scottish football, there's games on regularly.

Rangers lost to a part time team because they're woeful. I'm interested why you think the Rangers thing was handled so badly?

Er yes compared to the prem the french league is a weaker, although not as weak as the Scottish one. there is way more investment going in, until rangers get up to speed which may take 5 more years if not longer there will always unless there is a blip be only 1 league winner in Scotland, you can not say that about the German, French, Italian, English, or even the Greek league

Rangers and Celtic were the only two big teams, they kind of made the Scottish league way more Competitive, I fully understand that ranger, or more to the point the owner should have brought to task. But by pushing them into the 3rd (Irn-bru), division not only punished Rangers, it punished the entire league, never mind the most important people here the supporters.

Though Green should never have been allowed to do what he did, but in a league where you only have 2 big teams, to remove one was madness, it was more 25 of the 30 voting chairman all saw their clubs one spot up. and not as per normal not looking at the bigger picture that it would effect the entire league, money would dry up, less investment, less interest in the league outside Scotland, how can that be good for anyone. They should have suspended him and all his cronies, made them sell the club, maybe giving it a 2/3 year 20 points a season punishment, but kept it in the league.

At times the greater good is bigger than one club.

As to the Scottish league and the ongoing discussion, not gonna say a lot more on that as it would seem people are taking it personally.