What makes a game a competitive game?

[Phal]

This is a slight spin-off to the other thread asking for a new game to replace 1.6



People saying this game isnt and that game isnt competitive...

Well I think thats a load of crap. To me, any game can be made competitive. All you need is a bunch of people who play the game and want to compete.




Ill use TF2 as my example since its what Im playing at the moment and people seem to generally think its not good for competitions.

People seem to think that because its got cartoony graphics and crits, it cant be a game worth playing in leagues etc? Why? Apparently the game is a lottery? If thats the case, why do the good players consistantly get to the top of the scoreboard? If thats the case, why do the good clans hammer the less experienced ones?

People dont like crits because there is a certain ammount of luck involved but when it comes down to it, everyone has a fairly even crit chance so it works both ways. Nobody has a real major advantage over the other person.

CS was the same, youd often walk into other peoples bullets... Wasnt that luck? Im sure that well over half of the headshots registered in games are mostly luck... so what makes that different to a crit?

The closest thing I can think of to pure skill is a 1v1 game of something like Quake or UT with railguns. That way theres no spray and no one else to shoot by accident but thats not for everyone.



Yes, TF2 is a lot simpler than TFC was as far as the 1v1 Deathmatch goes... but that only means the teamwork and coordination then becomes more important.

It doesnt matter how simple combat is... a good player will always beat a crap player over time.



Opinions?

 

[Phal]

Quote:
Yes, TF2 is a lot simpler than TFC was as far as the 1v1 Deathmatch goes... but that only means the teamwork and coordination then becomes more important.

How does 'teamwork and co-ordination' become more important in a 1v1 match.





No, you misread :\ I said that the 1v1 was simpler in TFC than TF2 so that just meant that teamwork and coordination. If you cant just run in and wtfpwn everyone on your own, you need to work together more.





Gameplay mechanics that require more skill? Like what?

In things like CS, I used to pay a lot more attention to my radar and what I could hear etc. Knowing which walls you could shoot through and where people were likely to camp was always very important.

In TF2 you dont have those things but there are always other things to watch and pay attention to.

You said you dont need to aim in TF2? lol well thats a load of crap tbh! If you dont aim then youre not gonna get far.

Waiting for uber charges wont win you the game. Everyone can have an ubercharge... you just have to know when and how to use it.





As for playing against a crap player... well you said youd kill him 19 times before he killed you? Could do the same in TF2 if you were playing against a crap player. I guess I was thinking of a smaller skill gap when I said crap player



Feel free to explain what these gameplay mechanics are that make all the difference!

 

[Phal]

P.S. I hate to be a grammar nazi, but I think you should look up how to use apostrophes.

Sorry if my reply makes me sound like an ass, I try to remain objective and remain impartital, and I really do like TF2, it's just not suited for competition.

And why should I use them? I tend to skip a lot of punctuation online purely because its a pain in the arse to keep adding manually and I dont type my replies into Microsoft Word first like some people do!

You might however want to look up how to spell 'impartial'





and yes, I know it was a typo!

 

[Phal]

Hmm well there are leagues that play using crits ( ED and WPTF2L when it gets going ) so its not exactly a standard to not have crits.

I personally like the crits ( mostly ) because it makes for more spectacular game play and sometimes theyre needed to break a rush or something similar. TFC had grenades to supplement damage, TF2 has crits

I know they can be annoying and yes sometimes theyre lucky... but on average, everyone has them so I dont see the problem.

 

[Phal]

Why do they detract from skill and team play? You still need to hit them for the crits to count!

ED has been using crits since the start and the Wireplay League hasnt started yet but everyone is fine about the crits there.

Obviously for splash damage weapons its an advantage but for everything else.

Not sure why people think theyre too pr0 for crits. Its the same pr0 bunch that insist on playing 6v6 instead of anything else for some reason. I personally would prefer 8v8 to be the norm but 6v6 does seem ok for CP maps. Would be rather sucky for CTF maps though because I dont think youd have enough people attacking / defending to make it fun. Then again, the pr0 people only tend to like the official maps so unless they play a lot of 2fort, it probably wouldnt worry them!

 

[Phal]

Well I think crits on or off its just a preferrence or opinion. Some like them and some dont.

Like you said, 1 crit in a 6v6 could turn the game around but then it comes down to your team to deal with it. If people are decent enough, they dont bunch up so 1 crit would only take out 1 person. If youre all bunched up and get taken out by a crit then you were asking for trouble and you got punished for it.

Non crit matches seem to favour the HW/Medic combo because these because a lot harder to kill without crits and I dont necessarily think this is a good thing.

Just because Valve released a patch to add commands to remove crits doesnt mean the anti crit people were right... It just means Valve listened to what people wanted and gave you a means to do what you wanted. Its like Quake 3, look at how many mods there were for different gameplay types. I wouldnt say 1 mod was better than the other... you just play what you like and enjoy.






As for Hangtime's post -

Not sure what you mean by Spawn Luck?

Good maps and consistant hitboxes... yes these are important. Most games have good maps otherwise they dont get played! Hitboxes... well thats never going to be perfect as long as we have internet gameplay. There will always be delays in what you do because of latency and there will always be a certain ammount of packet loss etc. Client prediction will never be perfect. I think those issues are responsible for what a lot of people blame on hitboxes. Because of client side prediction, what you see on your screen isnt necessarily what is actually happening. This is why you often find yourself dead around the corner when you thought you were safe :/ this is why LAN gameplay is better!


Speed and Physics - I dont think it matters how complicated or how simple controls are - there is still skill. Youve only got to look at the Olympics... What could be simpler than jumping as far as you can? or jumping over something high? or throwing something far? Just because something is easy to do or slow doesnt mean it requires less skill to do. There is always room for improvement.

Hardware requirements - well thats a perk and a disadvantage of PC gameplay unfortunately. People want games to look nice and unfortunately this does have an impact on performance etc :/ As long as game makers keep the requirements realistic, I dont have a problem. If your PC cant handle the game then dont play it :\

 

[Phal]

I think having crits in makes the game more interesting because its less predictable. There might be less skill in the kills you get through crits but I think the skill then shows up in how you deal with the loss of team mates.

If you lose your HW/Medic or more in 1 go, it takes alow of skill to save your team from losing a point then or from losing a flag.

Damage from a crit also doesnt always mean instant death for someone and how you deal with getting knocked down to low health is also important.

I know why people dont like the crits but Id rather just accept them as part of the game which was made and adapt.



As a Demo, getting a direct hit using normal grenades isnt exactly simple either so sometimes I think the crits are deserved it makes the explosions much more satisfying hehe