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When are you going fully electric?

Discussion in 'Motors' started by Ricochet J, Aug 23, 2018.

  1. Journey

    Mobster

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 4,918

    Location: West Midlands

    That is possibly one of the least thought through comments I have seen recently in this thread. Please clarify what you mean by a stopping point? Normally on a long journey we'll stop at a motorway service station, or come off at a major junction to a re-fuelling station, obviously putting a whacking great big fuel station up with all of the planning issues and and safety precautions surrounding them is a lot easier than putting in a few charging points (that was sarcasm btw.) I highly doubt that in 5 years time you will find any major service station, or supermarket or hotel with out a few fast chargers, the competition in the market place to service a huge growth in vehicles will be far too lucrative to ignore. You sound like my Dad did when mobile phones were becoming popular, "Ah, great idea but until I can get a signal in the local then they are a waste of time, and that will never happen"
     
  2. Amp34

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 25, 2005

    Posts: 28,426

    Location: Canada

    “We” is the biggest issue in this whole debate.

    “We” means “you”, not everyone. Most current EV owners are not the average vehicle user, yet project their lifestyle/economic situation into the rest of the population. It’s present in every debate about EVs.

    As for your question. Stopping point means anywhere that someone stops. You may only stop at a hotel or a service station, that doesn’t mean everyone does. Personally, when I’d drive to Cornwall I would take a nice half hour stop on Dartmoor and wander up to a Tor. Many others do similar things on long distance journeys, it’s a bit nicer than than an boring service station with overpriced food - the fuel station of which is the necessary evil if you need to refuel, staying no longer than necessary.

    To clarify, my point is not that EV’s aren’t a good option, just that Haggismans point is not the be all and end all. It only really works if there are fastchargers at every location people stop.
     
  3. satchef1

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 17, 2009

    Posts: 3,493

    Wasn't Haggisman arguing that 250 miles in 5 minutes isn't necessary (never mind likely impossible)? I don't think there's many who would argue that the current infrastructure is adequate. If you buy, for example, a Kona, Niro, or I-Pace and need to recharge back to 80%, you're going to be sat at a charger for well over an hour.

    But faster charging rates loom on the horizon. While 250 miles in 5 minutes may not happen, 10 to 15 minutes is within the realms of possibility. EV charging on long journeys is never going to be convenient compared to existing fuel solutions. But I'm fairly certain most people could cope with having to stop at a service station once, for 10-15 minutes on an 8 hour journey.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
  4. b0rn2sk8

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2003

    Posts: 3,701

    You are better off measuring recharge rate in miles gained per hour rather than the actual charge rate.

    A prime example of this is the Kona and the iPace, the iPace has a higher charge rate but the Kona will wreck it on a long journey because it just uses far less electricity where as a Model 3 will wreck both.
     
  5. ShiWarrior

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 20, 2002

    Posts: 17,400

    Location: Oxon

    Are there any Electric cars out there currently (like a nissan leaf for example) that will do 200+ miles and charges quickly ?


    Also what about these Hybrids ? do you still have to put petrol in or can you just use the electric mode only ?

    Thanks
     
  6. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 7,344

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    No hybrids are all only short range on electric

    I wouldn't consider electric if doing regular long journeys yet, yes its possible but its still a bit edgy
     
  7. Minstadave

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 8, 2004

    Posts: 23,619

    Location: Rutland

    Tesla is your main 200 mile EV.
     
  8. ShiWarrior

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 20, 2002

    Posts: 17,400

    Location: Oxon

    this review was interesting :



    he actually says its no cheaper to run than a petrol or diesel car if your not charging at home


    i do short journeys to work and out and about after work, im not sure an EV will work for me yet, but im looking into them currently
     
  9. b0rn2sk8

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2003

    Posts: 3,701

    Ev’s are currently only viable if you charge at home or at work where you can get cheap electric. That will change over time but Public chargers are expensive (comparatively) and not really in places for everyday use. They are often near trunk roads so they are fine for doing the odd 200+ mile trip.

    Hyundai Kona, Kia Nero and the Soul will do what you are asking for and are not silly money to buy.

    This years new Leaf 60kwh will do 200 miles and charge quickly but there are not any chargers that will actually charge it quickly and it’s the only car to use that standard. Make of that what you will. They are nicer on the inside than the Korean alternatives but I wouldn’t buy one over a Kona or Nero.
     
  10. ShiWarrior

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 20, 2002

    Posts: 17,400

    Location: Oxon

    I love the new leaf, looks so much nicer
     
  11. b0rn2sk8

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2003

    Posts: 3,701

    Agreed, I just caution against it because it is one of the only cars that lack proper cooling for the battery. It puts some big question marks over the degradation that you could see over 5 years-10 years. All the bigger pack means is more heat and no way of getting rid of it. It will be fine if it doesn’t see much rapid charging but if it does or it lives in a hot climate like Spain then I can see degradation hitting much harder than other models.

    It’s also pretty much now the only car that is shipping with Chademo rapid charging. Just like with HDDVD and BlueRay, only one will make it and it’s not likely to be Chademo at this point.

    Even Tesla is now shipping it’s Model 3 with CCS in Europe and they have their own proprietary charging network which they are now retrofitting with CCS connectors (still Tesla Only mind).

    The car side of things is good, pro pilot is decent and quality wise it’s good. It’s just the EV bits that concern me over other cars like the Kona and Nero. It’s a shame those cars can’t match the leaf in terms of quality otherwise there would be no question.
     
  12. satchef1

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 17, 2009

    Posts: 3,493

    There's quite a few EVs that will do over 200 miles now. Tesla S/X/3, Jaguar I-PACE, Hyundai Kona, Kia Niro. The Kia Soul and Nissan Leaf will get there this year, possibly alongside the Renault Zoe, BMW i3, and others.

    Charging is the new barrier. With the exception of Tesla, 50kW is still standard (roughly 30 miles per 10 minutes on charge). A few cars support up to 100kW charging, but there's currently no 100kW chargers in the UK. Meanwhile, on the continent they're installing 350kW chargers, to provide support for upcoming vehicles.

    Hybrids have their own set of problems. Providing decent electric range brings cost and weight issues without a complete redesign of how the drivetrain works (see i3 REX or Chevrolet Volt). The new electric-based car platforms launching over the next couple of years should change the game on that front.

    It's still early days really. A lot of the dominos aren't yet lined up.
     
  13. Jonnycoupe

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 19, 2002

    Posts: 11,432

    Location: N.Warks

    IPACE can do 80kW now, updates expected to allow 100kW.
     
  14. b0rn2sk8

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2003

    Posts: 3,701

    That’s true but as the above poster said, your currently stuck on 50kw because that’s all that has been built.

    The cars on the market that can do >50kw are:
    Ionic
    Kona
    Nero
    IPace
    Etron
    Model X
    Model S

    Upcoming cars with an actual release date and final design revealed:
    Model 3
    EQC
    Taycan
    Leaf E+ 60kw (unlikely to see compatible chargers for a long time IMO)
    Soul (new one due soon, I think the old one only does 50kw, it might do 70 like the ionic)
    iX3 (not sure if it has an actual release date yet or if we have seen the actual final car)

    There are a few cars that will ‘rapidgate’ because they lack proper cooling (charge rate throttles on 2nd rapid charge and gets slower the more you do it):

    Leaf 40kw
    ENV-200 (van)
    E-Golf
    E-Crafter (Van, not sure if available here. Basically an E-Golf drive unit and battery put in a big VW Crafter van)

    I also expect the new Leaf E+ to ‘rapidgate’ because it also lacks proper cooling.
     
  15. Matthew.M

    Mobster

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 3,073

    Location: Birmingham

    Ionity are aiming to build a Europe wide network of over 400 350kw chargers by 2020. I imagine this will change the landscape of rapid charging shortly and they have some serious cash behind them.

    2 sites in the UK are under construction and a further 2 have planning permission. There will likely be many more announced over the next few months ready for the next wave of new EV releases which support faster charging.

    The other charging networks will need to catch up.

    Once this network is built out we’ll likely be close to the tipping point where it’s not really much of an inconvenience on long journeys in comparison to petrol/diesel cars.
     
  16. ShiWarrior

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 20, 2002

    Posts: 17,400

    Location: Oxon

  17. b0rn2sk8

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2003

    Posts: 3,701

    Ionity will be a good network eventually.... but they need to catch up with their own roll out plan, they are at least year behind schedule.

    They said at the end of 2017 there would be 20 stations online, there were zero.

    There are only 46 up and running as of today, 2020 is next year so they need to do another 354 stations in the next 19 months.

    They are also incredibly expensive.

    Tesla on the other hand already have a network the size of what ionity planned and it’s expanding at a similar rate if not faster.

    No rapid charging if I recall correctly. That combined with a very short range... not recommended.
     
  18. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 7,344

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    I wish one of the supermarkets would spot the opportunity here and strike some deals.
    They are the perfect opportunity for a decent grid across the UK, focusing on the places where people live.

    I mean they have big car parks, which would require little change to give EV charging points. You could charge whenever shopping, plus they are often already out of town alongside major roads. pretty much any decent size will have a Tesco/Sainsbury/ASDA near it, if not multiples. as my other half travels a lot she often calls me to ask for the nearest supermarket (sat nav too unreliable as its the BMW built in and not updated for a few years), and its rare that I cant find her one less than 10-15 mins away, often far closer from where she is going.
    Would work really well to be able to pull into one of these, nip into the shop, go for a pee, grab a coffee etc. They are practically as convenient as service stations, just need to up their grab n go type offerings a little.

    That would be one hell of a network that could be easy to get up and running. With plenty of people doing shopping more on demand now, charging for 20-30 minutes every few days seems a great opportunity not just for the individuals, but also the shops. I mean things like the tesco 5p off a litre could change to 15 minutes of free charge etc
     
  19. Jonnycoupe

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 19, 2002

    Posts: 11,432

    Location: N.Warks

    Day to day home charging then fast charging is for the long holiday trips... my example is the trips to France and mainland Europe, rather than Cornwall or Scotland. You are not stuck to 50kW.

    Brave trip to make regardless.