When are you going fully electric?

[b0rn2sk8]

I think BEV prices are being kept high by manufacturers at the moment. While I’ve got no evidence of that, there are signs it is happening. Manufacturers are not releasing entry level trims, the cost of batteries has almost reduced to the point that was hailed as price parity with ICE ($100/kwh) and yet price gaps remain high and manufacturers for the most part trying to meet (not exceed) their fleet emissions targets.

That said, I totally get they are a business and they will as a business want to milk their ICE assets as hard as they can while they still can to maximise profit. It’s fair to question their ethics and corporate social responsibility though given the overwhelming evidence of the damage combustion does.

It’s an interesting read on used cars and surprising that used values are not fairing well on the continent. Shame they are all LHD! Looking around the used market in the U.K., most EVs seem to hold up ok but there are a few that don’t like the etron.

You can pick up an etron 55 on a 19 or 20 plate for just over £42k, the base models RRP is £60k+

Model 3 performance seem to be creeping under £47k on a 19 or 20 plate, again a £60k+ car. Relative bargain compared to a used SR+ at around £36k (£41k new). I’ve got no idea why anyone would buy a used SR+ for that price when a new one is only £5k more. There are some on Auto Trader for £38-£40k.

 

[SDK^]

I think BEV prices are being kept high by manufacturers at the moment. While I’ve got no evidence of that, there are signs it is happening. Manufacturers are not releasing entry level trims, the cost of batteries has almost reduced to the point that was hailed as price parity with ICE ($100/kwh) and yet price gaps remain high and manufacturers for the most part trying to meet (not exceed) their fleet emissions targets..

They need to keep EV's prices higher than ICE cars to sell what's sitting around on car parks and those still coming off the production line. Who would buy an ICE Corsa, Mokka, Golf, Mini etc... if the equivalent EV version was the same price!!

 

[Randomface74]

They need to keep EV's prices higher than ICE cars to sell what's sitting around on car parks and those still coming off the production line. Who would buy an ICE Corsa, Mokka, Golf, Mini etc... if the equivalent EV version was the same price!!

Which of course has an environmental cost, which the manufacturers should be financially penalised for, to make this practice not worthwhile.

 

[Fusion]

Which of course has an environmental cost, which the manufacturers should be financially penalised for, to make this practice not worthwhile.

That's why there are large fines for not meeting average fleet Co2 targets. Hybrids are allowing a fudge here, though.

 

[jpaul]

Not sure the fines are large £89M vag fine , across 230K bev's they sold ... so that's only £400 they need to load onto each bev sold,
what stops the manufacturers being a cartel.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Not sure the fines are large £89M vag fine , across 230K bev's they sold ... so that's only £400 they need to load onto each bev sold,
what stops the manufacturers being a cartel.

it doesn’t work like that...

 

[Ranger07]

Quite a funny video on Australia's anti EV stance, until I discovered this Youtube channel about 6 months ago I had no idea it was such a backwards country. It's a little sweary [NSFW]

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Have you not seen the 'clean coal' skit... I mean debate in the AZ parliament where they passed around a piece of coal to show how clean it was while neglecting to mention that had been lacquered to stop it being carcinogenic and well make everything it touched black?

 

[DarrenM343]

Hydrogen ICE car. Looks like the loud exhaust chavs could live on . Good progress on alternative fuels.
VIDEO: Hear Toyota's hydrogen combustion engine in action - sound and feel of ICE without the emissions - paultan.org

 

[b0rn2sk8]

While electric sources for EVs are often from non-renewable energy sources such as coal (which ironically is not good for the environment), hydrogen is abundant in the air and like battery electric vehicles, nothing comes out from the tailpipe other than water in FCEVs. If electricity is generated purely from renewable sources such as wind or solar, then using an EV would truly be zero-emissions throughout the chain.

This paragraph made me chuckle. ‘Hydrogen is abundant in the air’ but no mention that most commercially available hydrogen is from fossil fuel production and splitting water uses the same coal riddled electricity as an EV but at a much worse efficiency.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Don't forget stars are full of the stuff too, only need to go as far as the Sun though...

Hydrogen really need to be understood and described whether, grey, blue or green hydrogen based on production method.

 

[Nasher]

Hydrogen ICE car. Looks like the loud exhaust chavs could live on . Good progress on alternative fuels.
VIDEO: Hear Toyota's hydrogen combustion engine in action - sound and feel of ICE without the emissions - paultan.org

Governments should have waited a bit longer for alternative tech before going with the EV farce. Now if something is found which means we can keep existing infrastructure it's to to U-turn (again).

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Governments should have waited a bit longer for alternative tech before going with the EV farce.

Doesn't work like that though does it? Nor will anything in the future need anything other than motors and power electronics for tractive effort regardless of energy storage.

Wait and not participate, sounds like a spectator sport.

 

[DarrenM343]

Rather than cars, to start with at least, I'm seeing more likely uses being heavy haulers where an absolutely massive battery could be required. Disproves the idea that many have that hydrogen cars have to have a battery too, just not as large as an EV. An hydrogen ICE appearing already. Good to see how alternative energy/fuels progresses. Very inefficient to extract hydrogen but maybe in time that will improve or be largely from renewable energy.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Rather than cars, to start with at least, I'm seeing more likely uses being heavy haulers where an absolutely massive battery could be required. Disproves the idea that many have that hydrogen cars have to have a battery too, just not as large as an EV. An hydrogen ICE appearing already. Good to see how alternative energy/fuels progresses

I think you might need to break that post into chunks cos im not sure what the point you are making? Fuel cell vehicles will need batteries, for buffer loads but much better if offers PHEV functionality like the stelantis vans, the lighter powerpack mass is great for payload but then doesn't wed you totally to hydrogen and most daily tasks its a local EV rather than wasting business time going to hydrogen pumps. Burning Hydrogen? Its 2021 not 2006.

 

[DarrenM343]

I'm just interested in the new techologies tbh and where they may lead. Alternatives may have some great use cases. Burning hydrogen may seem 2006 but it could still be a zero local emission alternative
As for my own transportation, I'm happy with the battery tech.

 

[FoxEye]

If you figured out your monthly costs and forget about the need for ownership, you would probably calculate that you could lease+run and EV for cheaper than you can buy and fuel an ICE.

Not sure about that with my usage.

Fuel about £40 month (or less).
Insurance £30 month.
M.O.T. let's say £20 month (fairly generous estimate).

I'm seeing EV leases for ~£200 month. And I'd still need insurance, so that's £230 month. A bit more than my £90.

Oh wait hold on, let's divide that £2k by 6 years, lol. 2000/12/6 = a bit less than £30 month. And she's still going so that figure comes down every year.

So that's £120 month vs £230. OK the difference is not as great as I expected, but that's still double the expense, realistically. Of course for that you get a new car, but I'm quite happy with an old car that costs me less £230 is almost an entire week's take-home pay.

 

[RoboCod]

Not sure about that with my usage.

Fuel about £40 month (or less).
Insurance £30 month.
M.O.T. let's say £20 month (fairly generous estimate).

I'm seeing EV leases for ~£200 month. And I'd still need insurance, so that's £230 month. A bit more than my £90.

Oh wait hold on, let's divide that £2k by 6 years, lol. 2000/12/6 = a bit less than £30 month. And she's still going so that figure comes down every year.

So that's £120 month vs £230. OK the difference is not as great as I expected, but that's still double the expense, realistically. Of course for that you get a new car, but I'm quite happy with an old car that costs me less £230 is almost an entire week's take-home pay.

Is your car VED exempt?

Always YMMV. My savings are considerable against my old car, given the mileage I do and the consumption difference.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Your sums have little bearing in reality in either scenario, but either way its a surprise to no one that an old car is cheaper to run than a brand new one because it’s depreciation which is the biggest expense of car ownership is basically zero.

Is £230 really almost an entire weeks take home pay for full time hours? If that genuinely is the case, no one is suggesting you are the target market for buying/renting a brand new car.

 

[Nasher]

Not sure about that with my usage.

Fuel about £40 month (or less).
Insurance £30 month.
M.O.T. let's say £20 month (fairly generous estimate).

I'm seeing EV leases for ~£200 month. And I'd still need insurance, so that's £230 month. A bit more than my £90.

Oh wait hold on, let's divide that £2k by 6 years, lol. 2000/12/6 = a bit less than £30 month. And she's still going so that figure comes down every year.

So that's £120 month vs £230. OK the difference is not as great as I expected, but that's still double the expense, realistically. Of course for that you get a new car, but I'm quite happy with an old car that costs me less £230 is almost an entire week's take-home pay.

Same for me. I run older cars which aren't depreciating anymore (one is appraciating by about 1.5 a year atm so effectively free to own). Can't really beat it with an EV especially once you add in battery lease/cover etc. and other hidden charges.