Why are most Motherboards so badly laid out?

[FatRakoon]

There is one thing that I have noticed, not just now, but for quite some time now, and that is that a lot of the good Motherboards, are seriously awfully laid out!

I will give you a couple of examples of a few of mine...

1 - MSI Neo2
Now, those of you who have one, will agree with me on this, but the ATX, IDE Ports and the FLoppy port are all crammed into the same spot.
Now, this does not pose too much of a problem as such, but when I got my Neo2, I bouht an Ultra-X Connect PSU and an Arctic freezer 64 and guess what happens if oyu mix that lot? The Thick bulky PSU cables push into the flopp & IDE Cables which in turn, wedges into the FAN on the Freezer - result was that the fan did not spin up properly?

2 - Gigabyte DS3
Now, come on.. a Good clocker and one of the most useless NB coolers in existence. Even the whoel issue of fitting one is an awkward one with so many people killing their Motherboards due to somehting touching here or there, and to be fair, there is something abotu LGA775 coolers that really makes me a little worried especially the way they attempt to hang onto the motherboard as if they are about to fall off all the time...

3 - This is a recent one, and it rings true for a lot of SLI boards that I have seen... The 2xGFX Ports are miles apart, with 2xPCI slots between them, and the bottom GFX slot has a PCI slot right under it... Now, I am trying to use 2x6600GTs in mine, both are cooler with Artic coolers and guess what? Because of that I can only actually use one PCI slot... The very bottom one!

If I put the stock cooler back on, I can use 2, but then I intend on clocking them soon and so I dont want to risk that.

4 - MSI Neo4-f ( This is also true for a hell of a lot of Mobos actually )
Where is the NorthBridge cooler? - Right under where the Graphics cards go! - rendering any chance of using anythign other than the stock ( look under "crap" in the dictionary ) cooler, totally obsolete.

5 - SATA Connections.

Why is it, that on any of my motherboards that do have more than one SATA controler, that the best ports ( The non-clocking ones ) are always chucked up right next to the CPU socket and the ones in a nice position are the ones that get clocked up if you try upping the FSB ( MSI Neo2 and DFI LP250UT are both like this )


Has anyone else noticed these kinds of issues?

 

[t31os]

For reference, the Nforce4 boards don't have a NB, just a southbridge, hence why there is only 1, which is nearer the botttom, as are most SB's.

The AMD chips have the built in memory controller, so do not require the northbridge, if i remember correctly.

I know this was the case with 939 and i've not worked with AM2 yet, so i don't know if the same principle applies, but i would imagine so..

 

[steve258]

The AMD chips have the built in memory controller, so do not require the northbridge, if i remember correctly.

A64s still require north bridge, just with mem controller integrated within chip and not in northbridge, that's why nvidia managed to integrate both north and south bridge into one, and that is also why nvidia chipset gets very hot.

Other chipsets by ATI, VIA, & SIS still have north and southbridge separated.

 

[WJA96]

There is one thing that I have noticed, not just now, but for quite some time now, and that is that a lot of the good Motherboards, are seriously awfully laid out!

I will give you a couple of examples of a few of mine...

1 - MSI Neo2
Now, those of you who have one, will agree with me on this, but the ATX, IDE Ports and the FLoppy port are all crammed into the same spot.
Now, this does not pose too much of a problem as such, but when I got my Neo2, I bouht an Ultra-X Connect PSU and an Arctic freezer 64 and guess what happens if oyu mix that lot? The Thick bulky PSU cables push into the flopp & IDE Cables which in turn, wedges into the FAN on the Freezer - result was that the fan did not spin up properly?

It sounds like the PSU doesn't have long enough cables. A lot of people buy components and blame the motherboard when they don't fit. Seems wierd to me

2 - Gigabyte DS3
Now, come on.. a Good clocker and one of the most useless NB coolers in existence.

Actually, when it's used with an Intel LGA Socket 775 compliant fan it works very, very well. If you slap a CPU-only HSF on there (one that doesn't blow any air outwards, only across the fins of the CPU heatsink then of course it's a disaster. You can't blame the motherboard manufacturer for designing a motherboard that works with compliant devices if you stick a non-compliant device on it, surely?

Even the whole issue of fitting one is an awkward one with so many people killing their Motherboards due to somehting touching here or there, and to be fair, there is something abotu LGA775 coolers that really makes me a little worried especially the way they attempt to hang onto the motherboard as if they are about to fall off all the time...

Again, the stock intel cooler is 6cm tall and 10cm across. It's held in place just fine by the stock retention mechanism. Anyone building a heatsink that is three times as tall and three times the weight really ought to design something better and include it in the packaging with the CPU cooler. Why didn't they? Cost vs. Profit most likely.

3 - This is a recent one, and it rings true for a lot of SLI boards that I have seen... The 2xGFX Ports are miles apart, with 2xPCI slots between them, and the bottom GFX slot has a PCI slot right under it... Now, I am trying to use 2x6600GTs in mine, both are cooler with Artic coolers and guess what? Because of that I can only actually use one PCI slot... The very bottom one!

Well, there are two issues here - one is, again, you are complaining that you have bought components that don't allow you do what you want. I think you have to accept responsibility for that, surely? And also, one reason they can bury PCI and PCIe slots is because of IRQ resource sharing. There are only so many channels available and if you're using most of them for the graphics cards then you couldn't use them for other purposes anyway becasue there would be resource conflicts. It's quite an elegant solution - rather than you have to phone up or e-mail and complain that your sound card isn't working (because it's conflicting with other shared resources), they just set the board out so you can't use more than the available amount of resources.

If I put the stock cooler back on, I can use 2, but then I intend on clocking them soon and so I dont want to risk that.

Well, I think you're blaming the motherboard for your not writing the purchase specification correctly, surely?

4 - MSI Neo4-f ( This is also true for a hell of a lot of Mobos actually )
Where is the NorthBridge cooler? - Right under where the Graphics cards go! - rendering any chance of using anythign other than the stock ( look under "crap" in the dictionary ) cooler, totally obsolete.

Again, you cannot blame the motherboard manufacturers for the fact that no-one has been clever enough to come up with a solution to this. If you didn't think the Northbridge cooler was adequate, then why buy it? And the Thermalright HR-05-SLi fits that motherboard I believe.

5 - SATA Connections.

Why is it, that on any of my motherboards that do have more than one SATA controler, that the best ports ( The non-clocking ones ) are always chucked up right next to the CPU socket and the ones in a nice position are the ones that get clocked up if you try upping the FSB ( MSI Neo2 and DFI LP250UT are both like this )

I think this is something that you should think very hard about. The chipset manufacturer decided not to include a PCI/PCIe lock for the SATA ports, so they should take some flak. The motherboard manufacturers have positioned the add-on controller SATA ports in a relatively uncongested part of the motherboard. It's not a problem unless you want a windowed case, in which case, you really shouldn't blame the motherboard manufacturers because you're incapable of turning your PC into an object d'art

Has anyone else noticed these kinds of issues?

Yes and no. I noticed that if I buy two components from two manufacturers I have to check if they fit. Sometimes I have to file a couple of millimeters off a corner. I thought that part of being a computer enthusiast was all about making things do what they shouldn't. Going impossibly quick at impossibly low temperatures while maintaining noise levels that pass un-noticed by a sharp-eared mouse? It's not easy, but it's what we're aiming for. If everyone could do it, I'd be out a hobby.

And if that's the best selection of motherboard related winges you can come up with, I don't think you're trying hard enough.

 

[FatRakoon]

T31OS:
Steve258 has just answered that one.

Its still a big chip that gets hot, and requires cooling.

WJA96

Hells bells... Are you trying to own me here??

It sounds like the PSU doesn't have long enough cables. A lot of people buy components and blame the motherboard when they don't fit. Seems wierd to me

The NEo2 system, does have all its ports crammed into just a couple of inches. If you check it out, you will see what I mean there.
The PSU cables are more than long enough, they are not very flexible and thus are nigh on impossible to bend. Sure, I have now cured this by simply not using that PSU on that board, and sure, even with the cooler, any mixture of them and its all fine, but the total combination of them all made a very poor system. I pointed this out because it still means that its showing up that I do not have a choice of what component parts I want in my PCs... Had the Ports been laid out differently, or at least not all crammed together in a small space, then these issues I had would not have been there. The PSU is perfectly fine in all my other systems, just not this one.

I stick with my original post on that one.

Actually, when it's used with an Intel LGA Socket 775 compliant fan it works very, very well. If you slap a CPU-only HSF on there (one that doesn't blow any air outwards, only across the fins of the CPU heatsink then of course it's a disaster. You can't blame the motherboard manufacturer for designing a motherboard that works with compliant devices if you stick a non-compliant device on it, surely?

Ok, I can accept that to a point, but very few "Compliant" coolers actually cool the thing properly.

Again, the stock intel cooler is 6cm tall and 10cm across. It's held in place just fine by the stock retention mechanism. Anyone building a heatsink that is three times as tall and three times the weight really ought to design something better and include it in the packaging with the CPU cooler. Why didn't they? Cost vs. Profit most likely.

True, but then the Stock cooler is heavier than the one Im using now.

Well, there are two issues here - one is, again, you are complaining that you have bought components that don't allow you do what you want. I think you have to accept responsibility for that, surely? And also, one reason they can bury PCI and PCIe slots is because of IRQ resource sharing. There are only so many channels available and if you're using most of them for the graphics cards then you couldn't use them for other purposes anyway becasue there would be resource conflicts. It's quite an elegant solution - rather than you have to phone up or e-mail and complain that your sound card isn't working (because it's conflicting with other shared resources), they just set the board out so you can't use more than the available amount of resources.

I do accept responsibility, I fully do. However, with such boards as the DS3, the manufacturers also rely heavily on the fact that very few of the users will actually be keeping their system at stock speeds, with stock cooling. I keep my point on things like that.

As for hiding certain ports from being used, this I can only accept again, to a point... What you are saying, is that in order to use the PCI slots, I cannot use a graphics card? - ok, a bit ridiculous of me to say that.

Its not just these... a lot of my motherboards have really bad layouts... Im not going to look at which one Im thinking of, but one of them has 2xIDE right at the very bottom-right of the board, and a standard IDE cable does not reach up to the CD/DVD bays - or at least only the furthest port does. The only cure was to either buy a long IDE cable, or have the CD/DVD Drives at the bottom, and in a standard case, this aint happening.

Well, I think you're blaming the motherboard for your not writing the purchase specification correctly, surely?

Reading?
No, I read the specs, I just didnt consider certain layouts.

Again, you cannot blame the motherboard manufacturers for the fact that no-one has been clever enough to come up with a solution to this. If you didn't think the Northbridge cooler was adequate, then why buy it? And the Thermalright HR-05-SLi fits that motherboard I believe.

Thats a silly thing to say...
Blaming the manufacturer for someone else not coming up with a solution? - its their problem in the first place, so no one else SHOULD need to?
NB Adequate? - How can I possibly know how efficient a certain component on a board is, until I actually buy it in the first place.
Thermalrite HR-05? - ok, I will have a look. At this time, I have a pair of 60mm fans blowing over the GFX and onto the HS and its doing a great job, so Im in no rush for now, but its somethign that I will be tackling soon.

I think this is something that you should think very hard about. The chipset manufacturer decided not to include a PCI/PCIe lock for the SATA ports, so they should take some flak. The motherboard manufacturers have positioned the add-on controller SATA ports in a relatively uncongested part of the motherboard. It's not a problem unless you want a windowed case, in which case, you really shouldn't blame the motherboard manufacturers because you're incapable of turning your PC into an object d'art

Oh, Im capable... Im very capable, and my cases all look fairly respectable, even the windowed ones.

I know that they have moved these extra ports because they are in fact an extra feature added on after the original design layout was given to them, I can accept that.

Its just tha tin all my systems, where they have done this, they just happen to have plonked it so bloody close to the CPU

Yes and no. I noticed that if I buy two components from two manufacturers I have to check if they fit. Sometimes I have to file a couple of millimeters off a corner. I thought that part of being a computer enthusiast was all about making things do what they shouldn't. Going impossibly quick at impossibly low temperatures while maintaining noise levels that pass un-noticed by a sharp-eared mouse? It's not easy, but it's what we're aiming for. If everyone could do it, I'd be out a hobby.

True. Cant say anything against that.

And if that's the best selection of motherboard related winges you can come up with, I don't think you're trying hard enough.

Oh no... I got a load more.

Soem are ridiculous, some are perfectly valid.

I posted that in the middle of the night - 4am or something and I was not thinking right.

I decided to post only a few points to see what feedback it would get.

I own over a dozen PCs and in each one I can find somethign to gripe about. Some are stupid gripes that are nto worth talking about, and some are real issues that many will agree with.

Such as
IDE ports being intermingled in the PCI slots. Again, meaning that standard cables dont reach even in a small case
Standard ports needing to take up a PCI slot when you dont have enough PCI slots as it is, when they could just as easily be put in the back like normal.
Uber High NB Coolers that come up only MM's away from the back of the AGP / PCIE Slots forcing you to only use cards that are no longer than the port itself ( Rare to find such super-short cards )
RAM slots so close to the CPU socket that they touch anything other than a stock cooler

As I said, I have loads of whinges and gripes... Most of them sure enough are only that.. .Whinges, but many of them are valid ones, that many will have and agree with.

 

[mishima]

Add in there the AB9, its got an awful layout!

 

[joey1211]

It's the cpu coolers that annoy me. The amount of pressure needed to attach one is ridiculous. The plastic screw in ones are just as cack.

But the heatsink in my shuttle is a true thing of beauty.

 

[FatRakoon]

The CPU coolers on my Intels are very poor quality compared to my AMD ones.

Agreed on the way Intel coolers ( LGA ) attach... It feels bad from the off, and I constantly feel like its about to pop off at any time, and the number of people that have fried their PC because that metal backplate is so close, is quite a surprise... I will admit that with my own, you cant get a rizla between the plate and the solder joints at the back, never mind a credit card.

 

[t31os]

Motherboards didnt always sit upright though remember guys, and coolers are going to be putting pressure on the board and risk falling off until an alternative is created.

I have to wonder how much redesigning is caused by moving ports around on a mobo design and i'd be inclined to wonder if moving things causes other trade-offs, ..... if we put this here , we can't put that there, etc.....and so on....

My current board, tbh, is lovely to work with...... with 1 or 2 exceptions.

1. The IDE ports are to close to where the end of the Graphics Card sits, so long cards (like my old x1800xt) cover IDE 1 and render it unusable.
2. Sata ports sit right above the Graphics Card causing cables hanging around all over the place, and over part of the card.... the bottom of the board would have been ideal, but there's various USB ports etc down there.

I have only 2 PCI slots, 1 is unusable below the Graphics Card though a small NIC card fits, which is what currently sits there, and the other has a sound card. What annoys me is the 3 little PCI-E slots above which will never get used and it would have really helped if only the Graphics Card could sit higher up, but then it would sit over the SB fan, so as i see it, its always a trade-off, you one thing one place, then you have to move something else.

Only so much can fit on a board, i can't imagine a motherboard being the easiest thing to redesign.

 

[BUFF]

Add in there the AB9, its got an awful layout!

tbh I often think that they didn't really expect too many people to be using the IDE connector - it was put in to tick the boxes.

Similarly complaints about not enough PCI or PCI slots being covered by dual slot gfx coolers will become moot.
More & more PCI-E cards are coming out - Creative have announced a PCI-E soundcard which was the last bastion.
Yes, PCI-E cards aren't yet as cheap as PCI but that's because all the engineering costs of the PCI ones were written off ages ago.

 

[totoro]

4 - MSI Neo4-f ( This is also true for a hell of a lot of Mobos actually )
Where is the NorthBridge cooler? - Right under where the Graphics cards go! - rendering any chance of using anythign other than the stock ( look under "crap" in the dictionary ) cooler, totally obsolete.

Has anyone else noticed these kinds of issues?

Yeah I know!

After the fan on my MB borked, I fitted one of those big blue zalman heatsinks. Had to bend 2 rows of prongs in order for it to fit.

Then recently I got a HIS 1950 pro. The thing is huge! and of course would no way fit with the zalman. So I had to rip the heatsink out...then annoyingly I had to send the HIS back, because of the dreaded clicking fan problem.

Running it with no fan or heatsink on the northbridge, and it seems fine Been looking for a low profile cooler for it, in case I get a new 1950.

 

[Hayley-K]

Again, you cannot blame the motherboard manufacturers for the fact that no-one has been clever enough to come up with a solution to this. If you didn't think the Northbridge cooler was adequate, then why buy it? And the Thermalright HR-05-SLi fits that motherboard I believe.

My Chipset on my DFI board is compleatly covered by my GTS and getting upto 75 degrees when under load! Posted a thread the other day and somone reccomended the Thermalright it looks like a good solution to my problems.