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Why bother with anything other than minimums?

Great, but try asking an actual question rather than going off on some childish rant about frame rate.

Hell, your original post could have simply been about there being no point in high-end cards, or the spending habits thereof.

If you want intelligent debate, try being intelligent.



If you can't be bothered asking the question properly, why should anyone be bothered to reply?

Look, if you find the big people threads too challenging then I'm sure they'll set up a kiddies section for you to play in. In the mean time I'd appreciate if you'd quit spoiling my thread. I asked a straightforward and (I thought) simple question which you seem to have singularly failed to grasp. No ranting involved.

*shakes head*
 
This is why I want to see more reviews with useful data like % of time spent at minimum fps, % of time spent below 30fps and a metric for how consistant the frame update rate actually is.

I did produce a tool for making these kinda graphs an example readout here:

http://aten-hosted.com/images/fpsexample.jpg

but theres some issues with the underlying maths in the programming which are beyond my ability to fix without a lot of researching as I'm not familiar with the concepts used to calculate certain aspects.

This one annoys me quite a bit as I see people hyping up a GPU or multi GPU setup based on the average and max fps numbers on a benchmark as being better than an alternative - but I know from my testing when producing this program that the alterntiave is actually the better as it has (a) less time spent at minimum fps (b) smoother more consistant frame update rates even tho it doesn't hit the same max fps.

That's the kind of concern I'm talking about. I'm currently tossing up a 6870 CF or 5850 CF with a single card or nvidia setup. But I find it really hard to find reliable information on which one will actually give me the smoothest gameplay experience, which has more to do with minimums than any other measurement.
 
Classic OCUK thread! Dave, if you ask a question, be prepared for someone to misread or wrongly interpret your question. It is not usually best to argue back lol ;)

I agree that console gaming is killing the PC market. No game uses all of my 3 GPUs for decent framerates. Hell, I can run BC2 max at 6048x with only 50% of each

But what can I do when the console gaming market brings them so much moula in!
 
Minimum frame rates without time scale is near useless.


min 1 fps for 1 second & an average of 60fps for 10 minutes is better than a min of 10fps for 5 minutes or longer with an average of 25fps for 10 minutes.
 
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I agree that minimums can be useful if they are meaningful. The situation someone stated about when something first loads is a good example of when it wouldn't be useful. And as I think Rroff was basically saying we need to know how often it is at the minimum grouping. If a game dips to 10fps once then i can live with it, but if it's hitting 25fps or below repeatedly then that will be more annoying, even if it has a max fps of 278fps that bumps the average up to 59.8fps.

I'm not sure how many of the people that can't bear to game at 59.9fps have monitors with refresh rates of 120Hz (I believe this is what dfines the maximum fps your monitor can actually display?) but I would imagine it's just about all of them. But my monitors only do 60Hz so anything above that is lost on me, however I can still see stuff below 30fps so knowing that a quad graphics card setup will allow me to get to 800fps doesn't make it more desirable than single card that will let me get to say 105fps if the minimums drops to 11.6fps regularly compared to say 43fps on the single card.

I think that was the pint you were getting to wasn't it?

I don't think I've really added anything new to the conversation and probably could've just said "+1", but never mind...
 
I agree that minimums can be useful if they are meaningful. The situation someone stated about when something first loads is a good example of when it wouldn't be useful. And as I think Rroff was basically saying we need to know how often it is at the minimum grouping. If a game dips to 10fps once then i can live with it, but if it's hitting 25fps or below repeatedly then that will be more annoying, even if it has a max fps of 278fps that bumps the average up to 59.8fps.

I'm not sure how many of the people that can't bear to game at 59.9fps have monitors with refresh rates of 120Hz (I believe this is what dfines the maximum fps your monitor can actually display?) but I would imagine it's just about all of them. But my monitors only do 60Hz so anything above that is lost on me, however I can still see stuff below 30fps so knowing that a quad graphics card setup will allow me to get to 800fps doesn't make it more desirable than single card that will let me get to say 105fps if the minimums drops to 11.6fps regularly compared to say 43fps on the single card.

I think that was the pint you were getting to wasn't it?

I don't think I've really added anything new to the conversation and probably could've just said "+1", but never mind...

Agreed! but in my case that just does not happen.

I have never had a set-up that gave me better meaningful minimums on a single GPU.
 
One simple way of analysis would be statistics on the frametimes. What percentage of gaps are there above 33ms (given that motion blur is effective)? This is the very essential way of telling the smoothness of playing, i.e. do I expect lots of lag spikes there? Most users that say 1GB vram is enough simply fails to understand this.
 


+1


The issue with Bit-Tech/Custom PC is that they end up with the absurd conclusion that:
  • GTX550 Ti is worth buying over the 6850
  • 2GB VRAM on a 6950 is not only pointless, but also the GTX560 Ti is faster and cheaper
  • 6970 is slower than the GTX570 and more expensive
  • GTX590 is faster than the 6990

Basically they said "buy nVidia, because everything else is rubbish."

They also only test four games - BC2, BlOps, Dirt 2 and Arma II, which, frankly, two of those are Nvidia favourites, one is irrelevant (BlOps - almost any card will produce good FPS here) and Arma II is ambivalent.

Take the GTX590 vs 6990 for Arma II at 2560x1600:

Card____Min__Average
GTX590: 31____38
6990:___26____49

And the conclusion is that the GTX590 is a faster card. Without being able to say how often it drops that low (and judging by the average, not often), the minimum result is irrelevant. If they could provide a max FPS too, it would help decipher that element to a degree - if the average and max FPS are very close (say a max of 51 fps for the 6990), then it's likely the min fps was just a random drop and bares very little relevance, whereas is the average and max FPS were miles apart (say a max of 91 for the 6990), the game would likely feel choppy. Even then, without time information, these conclusions could be inaccurate.

I think a line graph of the FPS over time would be helpful, but comparing many cards in such a way is difficult, as the graphs end up very confusing and busy very quickly.

EDIT: It looks like BT have corrected the GTX590 result since their 'graphics card megatest' in CPC, as now the averages are half-decent. But to come to the conclusion that the GTX590 is faster, even with driver problems (I guess that's what accounts for the difference) is ridiculous.
 
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The simple answer there is.....don't read their reviews and move to someone who shows no bias?
 
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