Would you recommend a degree?

Djwayne said:
I have a Bsc hons computer forensics from the University of Glamorgan and I did it without the entry requirement due to being a mature student (old fart).

My course took 4 years instead of 3 as I didn't do an access course I did a foundation degree which was then topped up to an honours by my final year.

A few pointers if you want to do forensics firstly pick a good uni , not necessarily the traditional ones you would think of where forensics is concerned.

Glamorgan has one of the best forensic courses in the country although the same can't be said for other subjects there.

Secondly understand your employment prospects post graduation. The chance of you actually getting a job in law enforcement forensics is actually very slim. most police force don't have huge computer forensic teams so vacancies are very limited and to give an example from my course there were 40 graduates who would all be competing for the same positions and that's just one uni.

The private sector is where you will make money although the starting salaries ain't great for graduates. Do some web searching for forensic companies , job adverts and pay scales.

I found the actual course very interesting and thoroughly enjoyed it but since leaving uni I haven't had to apply my forensic skills directly with my job. I have been doing various contract IT roles which are not directly forensic related but which pay well. Its more computer science than forensic science but that pretty much sums up the forensics degree course its 2/3 comp sci and 1/3 forensics.

Hope that helps any questions feel free to ask :)
Click to expand...

Were you also hoping to get into the same industry as me then? :o

I don't really know how difficult it is, but I will be researching it further.

Even if yours was 2/3 CompSci and 1/3 Forensics, that is still beneficial, right? :)
 
In the course of a lifetime, having a CompSci related degree and wanting to work in IT will probably benefit you (and your eventual earning power) immensely. Just make sure the course is respected enough in industry so that you can get your foot in the door in your first post-graduation job application. This is the hardest part.
 
Having a compsci degree at the current cost is not worth it at all, in my opinion. If your parents are rich and they are going to pay for it all and the cost of university etc. Then I would say go right a head, have a great time etc. But if you have to pay for it yourself with student loans, I would strongly advise not to get a computer related degree. I would suggest getting an electrical engineering degree or something that is more valuable than a computer related degree. You would be better off getting some entry level experience, then pay for some IT related certifications or specific training courses. What I would hate to see is you pay £30k for a dream job working with a CSI crew solving crimes with a computer etc. But end up working on vodafone 1st line helpdesk or something like that.
 
BoonMonkey said:
Were you also hoping to get into the same industry as me then? :o

I don't really know how difficult it is, but I will be researching it further.

Even if yours was 2/3 CompSci and 1/3 Forensics, that is still beneficial, right? :)
Click to expand...

I was actually in a position where I had worked in IT for a number of years and had plenty of experience but lack of formal qualifications held me back. I decided to go back to uni looked at computing degrees and saw the forensics one and thought "that looks interesting".

I was interested in a forensics related job (and i still am) but I have a family so earning comes before the ideal job. I am still looking and if the right piosition came up I would jump at the chance.

The course is as difficult as you make it , if you put the effort in and are dedicated then it will be an enjoyable challenge. If you get drunk every night don't bother going to lectures and leave coursework to the last minute it will be an uphill struggle.

Even though the course is 2/3 comp sci you need that to understand the concepts of the 1/3 forensics. The comp sci stuff is very beneficial as if you cannot get a forensics job you can always get another computer related role as an IT degree counts.
 
To be fair with your qualifications you probably won't walk into a great uni... BUT... Get a position in a company lower down and work your way up and study whilst working. A guy I met through work had done that and went from shop floor to ops manager of a very large food production factory for a well known company. He got a degree on the job whilst working and done him no harm.

Good luck!
 
InKursion said:
In the course of a lifetime, having a CompSci related degree and wanting to work in IT will probably benefit you (and your eventual earning power) immensely. Just make sure the course is respected enough in industry so that you can get your foot in the door in your first post-graduation job application. This is the hardest part.
Click to expand...

So even if at first not managing to break into the forensics side of things, the CompSci will be highly beneficial to any job any the IT industry, right? :)

groen said:
Having a compsci degree at the current cost is not worth it at all, in my opinion. If your parents are rich and they are going to pay for it all and the cost of university etc. Then I would say go right a head, have a great time etc. But if you have to pay for it yourself with student loans, I would strongly advise not to get a computer related degree. I would suggest getting an electrical engineering degree or something that is more valuable than a computer related degree. You would be better off getting some entry level experience, then pay for some IT related certifications or specific training courses. What I would hate to see is you pay £30k for a dream job working with a CSI crew solving crimes with a computer etc. But end up working on vodafone 1st line helpdesk or something like that.
Click to expand...

I see where you're coming from, but I'm not sure why you suggest the electrical engineering degree. Assuming that entails things such as industrial cabling and wiring for large companies, etc. that doesn't really interest me.

I know whatcha mean about spending £30k and ending up in a job that doesn't benefit from the qualifications though, happens all too often though it would seem.

Djwayne said:
I was actually in a position where I had worked in IT for a number of years and had plenty of experience but lack of formal qualifications held me back. I decided to go back to uni looked at computing degrees and saw the forensics one and thought "that looks interesting".

I was interested in a forensics related job (and i still am) but I have a family so earning comes before the ideal job. I am still looking and if the right piosition came up I would jump at the chance.

The course is as difficult as you make it , if you put the effort in and are dedicated then it will be an enjoyable challenge. If you get drunk every night don't bother going to lectures and leave coursework to the last minute it will be an uphill struggle.

Even though the course is 2/3 comp sci you need that to understand the concepts of the 1/3 forensics. The comp sci stuff is very beneficial as if you cannot get a forensics job you can always get another computer related role as an IT degree counts.
Click to expand...

Getting drunk, partying, night clubs, etc, doesn't interest me. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't do drugs. The only thing I'd be going for is to benefit my life.

It's a shame that you can get a job based on ambition! Well... I suppose you could, but it just isn't as common. I would really like to get into the IT industry and eventually the forensics though, if it isn't dead off the line getting into it that is fine. Things take time. The way I'm looking at it now is I'm 18, I want to set myself up doing something I like at an early age, not wait till it's too late.

Thanks guys! The replies are great :)
 
I'm in a very similar situation as you seem to find yourself in now, only I'm 21 not that much older but still.

I went to Sixth Form a couple of years ago but it didn't turn out so great for me due to a number of factors; ( not that I'm blaming my failure on this but i doubt it helped anyway ) being diagnosed with Crohns Disease within my first month or so of the first academic term and having to deal with family illness as well but more importantly my own laziness and lack of maturity. I came from secondary school with similar GCSE's to your own C's across the board in every subject (Maths,English,Science,ICT etc) and chose to study Computing A level, ICT A level and Media Studies A level(which i quickly dropped and switched for Geography A level).

Long story short i ended up putting more effort into messing about more than i did applying myself in my subjects or taking care of my own health which came back to bite me in the ass bigtime! Managed to scrape by in first year with AS results of B,C,C but things totally went amiss in second year and i ended up hardly showing up and ended up failing miserably. I know this outcome is down to my own lack of maturity/failure to work hard and apply myself.

Since then I've been working part time in a supermarket and doing my best to look after my health and knuckle down and aim to better myself. Currently looking at doing an Access to HE Course in Computing at The Manchester College which i found off the Access to HE website.

Anyway sorry for the ramble of text, not at all used to writing on forums etc and i know its actually pretty pointless me saying all this apart from to say you aren't the only one in this situation i guess :p
 
I hate to say it but with those grades I am not really sure a degree is the best route to take. In general I am a firm beleiver in university education, having a degree has taken me and my friends a long way relatively quickly. Some friends graduated and entered 40-45K a year jobs, almost everyone else started in the 30-35K range, and everyone has progressed substantially in their careers, salaries they can command, their options and choices. When I graduated (2005) me and my friends were choosing between different job offers and evaluating choices such as 38K based in london, 27K in Edinburgh, Big money from an investment bank (40K+) or getting massively underpaid doing a PhD (12K). Some of the banking roles offered to pay back your student loan, or offered 5-12K starting bonuses etc. Some of the smaller research companies had more interesting projects and easier work environments, but less financial benefits.

No idea what the situation is like in the UK now but I can only imagine it still being massively beneficial to have a good degree forma good university. And that is the ultimate point, you need a good degree from a good university. In the final year every week their were recruitment events from the industry, some of the companies only bothered attending the top half of the Russell Group universities, even then many of the events were by invitation only and the companies would select the top 5-20% of year (based on previous years exam marks). E.g., Citigroup, Goldman Sachs, KPMG, McKinsey etc., were highly selective.

I had a 1 year internship in the San Francisco bay area, the company only approaches 5-6 universities in the UK.... That lead to many useful contacts and networking opportunities, as well as a killer work experience on my CV, and ultimately helped me get the job I have at the moment in the US.


I would also say to avoid something like pure CS but do a joint honors in maths and CS. The maths in general is much more useful and valuable. At the software company I work at now we are much more likely to hire a mathematician that has never programmed a single line of code in their life than a bog standard CS grad, heck even a good CS grad will have a hard time against a math or physics major.

That is my biggest regret from university, dropping maths after 2 years and doing a joint honors in Artificial Intelligence and a second subject that was interesting but ultimately not very useful in my end career. A Joint honors AI and maths would have been more useful.
 
You dont want to do any degree you can get onto with those grades. The teaching standard will be poor and social interaction will revolve around beer. Lectures are also apt to revolve around beer in one way or another.

You need to either fix those A level grades or do a foundation degree somewhere moderately respectable.

Otherwise, in 3 years, you'll post on here. You'll say "there's no jobs despite my degree". And we'll point you to the jobs you can get now. You don't want this.

edit: Made it fractionally less abrasive, since I'm no longer sat on a stationary train for indefinite periods of time
 
Last edited:
groen said:
Having a compsci degree at the current cost is not worth it at all, in my opinion. If your parents are rich and they are going to pay for it all and the cost of university etc. Then I would say go right a head, have a great time etc. But if you have to pay for it yourself with student loans, I would strongly advise not to get a computer related degree. I would suggest getting an electrical engineering degree or something that is more valuable than a computer related degree. You would be better off getting some entry level experience, then pay for some IT related certifications or specific training courses. What I would hate to see is you pay £30k for a dream job working with a CSI crew solving crimes with a computer etc. But end up working on vodafone 1st line helpdesk or something like that.
Click to expand...

Only do I.T Certs if you want to do support roles. You advice will directly lead him into 1st line helpdesk work.

Do a CS degree if you want develop software.
 
D.P. said:
I hate to say it but with those grades I am not really sure a degree is the best route to take. In general I am a firm beleiver in university education, having a degree has taken me and my friends a long way relatively quickly. Some friends graduated and entered 40-45K a year jobs, almost everyone else started in the 30-35K range, and everyone has progressed substantially in their careers, salaries they can command, their options and choices. When I graduated (2005) me and my friends were choosing between different job offers and evaluating choices such as 38K based in london, 27K in Edinburgh, Big money from an investment bank (40K+) or getting massively underpaid doing a PhD (12K). Some of the banking roles offered to pay back your student loan, or offered 5-12K starting bonuses etc. Some of the smaller research companies had more interesting projects and easier work environments, but less financial benefits.

No idea what the situation is like in the UK now but I can only imagine it still being massively beneficial to have a good degree forma good university. And that is the ultimate point, you need a good degree from a good university. In the final year every week their were recruitment events from the industry, some of the companies only bothered attending the top half of the Russell Group universities, even then many of the events were by invitation only and the companies would select the top 5-20% of year (based on previous years exam marks). E.g., Citigroup, Goldman Sachs, KPMG, McKinsey etc., were highly selective.

I had a 1 year internship in the San Francisco bay area, the company only approaches 5-6 universities in the UK.... That lead to many useful contacts and networking opportunities, as well as a killer work experience on my CV, and ultimately helped me get the job I have at the moment in the US.


I would also say to avoid something like pure CS but do a joint honors in maths and CS. The maths in general is much more useful and valuable. At the software company I work at now we are much more likely to hire a mathematician that has never programmed a single line of code in their life than a bog standard CS grad, heck even a good CS grad will have a hard time against a math or physics major.

That is my biggest regret from university, dropping maths after 2 years and doing a joint honors in Artificial Intelligence and a second subject that was interesting but ultimately not very useful in my end career. A Joint honors AI and maths would have been more useful.
Click to expand...


On the contrary i've met terrible programmers who come from maths backgrounds. They maybe good at fancy algorithms, not so good at maintainable and well designed code.
 
UK-AL05 said:
On the contrary i've met terrible programmers who come from maths backgrounds. They maybe good at fancy algorithms, not so good at maintainable and well designed code.
Click to expand...

Maintainable and well designed code can be created by some desk monkey junior coders or sent off to India or eastern europe, getting the right algorithms is paramount, you cannot polish a dog dump.
If you are using mathematicians or physicists to be code monkeys then they are in the wrogn position. The Matlab prototype code (or even hand written algorithms on a bit of paper) should be handed off to a junior role for development.

Besides which, learning to write clean and maintainable code is trivial relative to the ability to develop custom algorithms with provable soundness and optimality.
 
Last edited:
UK-AL05 said:
On the contrary i've met terrible programmers who come from maths backgrounds. They maybe good at fancy algorithms, not so good at maintainable and well designed code.
Click to expand...

I suppose the application is the most important thing - in the computational sciences you tend to find that engineers tend have the best coding/mathematics trade-off. Mathematicians are great at the algorithm work, but even the best coders from their cohorts tend not to be too rooted in reality :p
 
BoonMonkey said:
I see where you're coming from, but I'm not sure why you suggest the electrical engineering degree. Assuming that entails things such as industrial cabling and wiring for large companies, etc. that doesn't really interest me.

I know whatcha mean about spending £30k and ending up in a job that doesn't benefit from the qualifications though, happens all too often though it would seem.
Click to expand...

He said Electrical Engineer not electrician (can we have the argument about protected titles again).:p

An electrical engineer will spend a heck of a lot of time studying maths and designing systems, very few actually touch a wire as they get machines or the aforementioned electrician to do that.

On the other hand if you don't earn more than £20k you never have to pay it back, even if you do then you only pay a few percent extra in tax and believe me the student loan will be the least of your complaints when you see your deductions each month...

Not that I'm suggesting forget about it but in reality it isn't something to worry about if you think university will help you.

BoonMonkey said:
SoGetting drunk, partying, night clubs, etc, doesn't interest me. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't do drugs. The only thing I'd be going for is to benefit my life.

It's a shame that you can get a job based on ambition! Well... I suppose you could, but it just isn't as common. I would really like to get into the IT industry and eventually the forensics though, if it isn't dead off the line getting into it that is fine. Things take time. The way I'm looking at it now is I'm 18, I want to set myself up doing something I like at an early age, not wait till it's too late.

Thanks guys! The replies are great :)
Click to expand...

You don't have to do all those things when you are at university. Find a quiet house and no issues. TBH one of the big things about going to uni is to learn "life skills" such as cleaning, shopping for food and living without your parents at your beck and call. Maybe you already do that but most 18 year olds don't.

And yes you can get a job through ambition, your ambition drives you to get qualified, apply for the job, then push yourself into the job you want. If you're not ambitions you probably end up not getting qualifications and spending your time doing menial jobs.


As for the original question, it may very well help you, however I wouldn't take the whole "Russell's group" as hard and fast at all. If you are heading into a "prestigious" (read mostly stuck up) career where the old boy public school/ Cambridge/Oxford set set the rules then you need to, however most other industries aren't as set in their old ways.

You want to be discussing with a few people who work in industries (higher up preferably) to see if they have a university preference (and this could quite force the Russell's group unis down your list) and what qualifications you need (may need a masters as well as a BSc).

Then look at the league tables, they certainly aren't useless (unless of course you're went to Cardiff because it was a Russell's group, THEN realised it was below a lot of ex polys... However they need more study than just "top of the list". Look at the course specific tables and see what the employment rate is (and check to see if the university gives a breakdown of what those employed went into) and things like student staff ratio (smaller is generally better). RAE is ok, however you are looking for employment prospects not a research position and as such you want a good teaching university, not necessarily a good research university (which is where the whole Russells/poly issue comes into it as Russells group unis will generally have better RAE scores, obviously, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are the best courses).

Once you have done that go look at how connected the unis are to Industry. A lot of jobs are about who "you" know, not necessarily applications on the open market. The who in this case being lecturers on your course and the course itself. A lot of the more prestigious (banks/accountants) may only go to some of the top Russells group universities but may also pick one or two others that they work closely with, the less prestigious, normal companies will have favourite universities which may not be at the top of the tables.

With all that info then you can make an informed decision on whether to "spend" your £30k.

You may end up going to a "top" university with a mediocre course that has prestigious companies advertising, where you then fight with the rest of the country for the jobs, or you may end up going to a less reputable uni with a well respected industry specific course that a lot of companies would take over the top university. Those companies may even have a certain number of places they only advertise through that university.

Technical courses where you know what industry you want to get into are a different kettle of fish to studying a more generic course like Maths or English as the related companies have more of an idea of the quality of the course on the CV, rather than just knowing the name of the university.
 
Last edited:
D.P. said:
Maintainable and well designed code can be created by some desk monkey junior coders or sent off to India or eastern europe, getting the right algorithms is paramount, you cannot polish a dog dump.
If you are using mathematicians or physicists to be code monkeys then they are in the wrogn position. The Matlab prototype code (or even hand written algorithms on a bit of paper) should be handed off to a junior role for development.

Besides which, learning to write clean and maintainable code is trivial relative to the ability to develop custom algorithms with provable soundness and optimality.
Click to expand...

On the contrary, normally decent uk coders usually have to rescue projects from 'india' and eastern europe. I've dealt with tons of horror stories, usually at higher rates than normal.

You forget the majority of work is not going to be cutting edge algorithms, but stuff like developing ERP(SAP) systems, databases, stock control, and the like for manufacturing companies. People who work on sap systems can expect extremely high salaries, if that's what he is after.

The amount of software development requiring(Rather than just for prestige) a pure maths degree is small. You need to be good at maths to the extent that you can understand Big O, Support vector machines and so forth, but you don't really need a huge pure maths component for that.

Don't get me wrong, software developers should be good at maths, but they don't necessarily require pure degree level maths.
 
Last edited:
Interesting perspective on mathematics / comp sci here. Thanks for posting it.

I see programming as a means of solving maths problems I can't do by hand- so no prizes for guessing which camp I'm in.
 
Amp34 said:
Snip
Click to expand...

Just for the sake of being a pedant and doing my part to help the higher-education industry in the UK as well: make sure you check out 1994 Group universities as well if you are ever considering the Russell Group.

There's a lazy shorthand developing in the media right now (mostly because that grand incompetent Gove is romancing them) as the Russell Group as the 'elite', which doesn't really correspond to actual academic reality. The prestigious/reputable universities are made up of Russell Group AND 1994 Group universities, with a few extra exceptions as well. Many RG universities perform worse than 94 group universities - the only fundamental difference is their size (RG are the big ones with science/med schools, 94 are the small campus unis).

Always feel the need to point out that the UK education system isn't another Ivy League where there's a super-group at the top and everyone else snivelling behind. This 'Russell Group' epithet is wearing thin.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom