X-Fi and Sound Blaster Z

brakeinup · 8 Oct 2013 at 23:10

Would I notice any difference between an X-Fi Xtreme Gamer and a Sound Blaster Z?

I use an external Yamaha amplifier via optical and have a 5 speaker set up. Mainly gaming (BF3, Arma 3 etc) but some music.

Marsman · 9 Oct 2013 at 02:31

No, because digital is not sound, it's data. The sound processing is done by the AV receiver. The sound card is just acting as a digital transport to send the data. Only by using the analogue outputs can you hear the quality a sound card has to offer.

brakeinup · 9 Oct 2013 at 20:33

Marsman said:
No, because digital is not sound, it's data. The sound processing is done by the AV receiver. The sound card is just acting as a digital transport to send the data. Only by using the analogue outputs can you hear the quality a sound card has to offer.

Thanks for the clarification.

brakeinup · 9 Oct 2013 at 20:38

Question: so what would be better sound - analogue or digital (if I fed the amp via optical or via multiple analogue cables per channel)? Sorry if I have misunderstood something.

Marsman · 9 Oct 2013 at 21:30

If the AV receiver you have has multi channel analogue input, then you can connect it that way to the sound card. The question is; which will have the better sound processing, the AV receiver or the sound card? My guess is there will be very little difference. I'd probably favour the sound card if the receiver is a low budget one. If the receiver is more mid range price, I'd probably stick with digital and let the receiver handle the sound conversion.

brakeinup · 10 Oct 2013 at 15:25

Thanks. The amp is a Yamaha RX-V357 and is a number of years old.

El_Watcher · 10 Oct 2013 at 16:36

Marsman said:
No, because digital is not sound, it's data. The sound processing is done by the AV receiver. The sound card is just acting as a digital transport to send the data. Only by using the analogue outputs can you hear the quality a sound card has to offer.

That is a very simplistic, and fairly incorrect statement to make. Yes information sent across a digital connection is data not sound, but what data is created and encoded before being sent, can be vastly different depending on the sound card.

If all you do is watch DVD films on your PC, then no there won't be a noticeable difference between cards, but when playing games, there could well be. The game produces sound code, which is communicated with the sound card using an API (DirectSound or OpenAL), and the resulting audio data can be different depending on how well designed the sound chip is for each of these APIs. This difference will produce different digital audio data even before you get to the ADC part of the sound card.

Also some cards also support live encoding of Dolby or DTS signals which the receiver can then decode to surround sound. Without this function, what you would get may not actually be proper surround sound.

brakeinup · 10 Oct 2013 at 20:50

El_Watcher said:
That is a very simplistic, and fairly incorrect statement to make. Yes information sent across a digital connection is data not sound, but what data is created and encoded before being sent, can be vastly different depending on the sound card.

If all you do is watch DVD films on your PC, then no there won't be a noticeable difference between cards, but when playing games, there could well be. The game produces sound code, which is communicated with the sound card using an API (DirectSound or OpenAL), and the resulting audio data can be different depending on how well designed the sound chip is for each of these APIs. This difference will produce different digital audio data even before you get to the ADC part of the sound card.

Also some cards also support live encoding of Dolby or DTS signals which the receiver can then decode to surround sound. Without this function, what you would get may not actually be proper surround sound.

Thanks for the update. I am going to try analogue to see if there is a difference. I do play games with surround via optical and have always found it lacking. Maybe this is the way forward.

Marsman · 11 Oct 2013 at 13:50

El_Watcher said:
That is a very simplistic, and fairly incorrect statement to make. Yes information sent across a digital connection is data not sound, but what data is created and encoded before being sent, can be vastly different depending on the sound card.

If all you do is watch DVD films on your PC, then no there won't be a noticeable difference between cards, but when playing games, there could well be. The game produces sound code, which is communicated with the sound card using an API (DirectSound or OpenAL), and the resulting audio data can be different depending on how well designed the sound chip is for each of these APIs. This difference will produce different digital audio data even before you get to the ADC part of the sound card.

Also some cards also support live encoding of Dolby or DTS signals which the receiver can then decode to surround sound. Without this function, what you would get may not actually be proper surround sound.

Can't argue with any of that; I was looking at it from a sound quality point of view only. SB Z may perform better in games, but it's hard to tell how much difference there will be, as it's usually on actual quality of sound basis that people make comparisons. Most reviews mention it performs well in games, but not how well if you already have an X-Fi.

As for DD/DTS encoding; yes it is essential for 5.1 gaming over SPDIF. The X-Fi has this as does the Z series, but the X-Fi Gamer requires the DDL/DTSC pack from Creative's site. Not sure if that also applies to the low profile Gamer. It was the case with older full height card.

Thanks for the update. I am going to try analogue to see if there is a difference. I do play games with surround via optical and have always found it lacking. Maybe this is the way forward.

In what way is the sound lacking? Actual quality of the sound or positional sound and game effects?

It's possible that you don't have DD/DTS live encoding enabled on your X-Fi. If it is disabled, then the AV receiver will be getting stereo only from the sound card. It will then apply Dolby Pro Logic to that, which will upmix it to 5.1. You will get 5.1, but more of a pseudo 5.1. DD/DTS live encoders create a 5.1 stream in real time, so the receiver will decode whichever is being used as 5.1, as it would as if it were receiving DD/DTS from a DVD.

I'd check to see if you have either Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect disabled first, but I'd also try analogue to your receiver as well, then choose which ever sounds better to you. If you find both ways are still lacking, then a SB Z might be worth considering; but it does depend on which area you think the sound is lacking.

If you find the actual sound quality is lacking, then I doubt a sound card upgrade will improve things a great deal. Ultimately, it's the speakers themselves and then the quality of the amp that dictate how good the sound quality is going to be. Depending on how you connect the card to the receiver, it can only do so much.

brakeinup · 11 Oct 2013 at 16:11

I have the full height card and the Creative Pack installed. All checked and present on the DTS Connect. I do get 5.0 surround out of the amp and DTS is the selected option and I use no effects settings via the amp.

I am running the Yamaha amp with a pair of Q Acoustics 1020i's with some Creative Labs THX speakers for rears + centre (S700's with the titanium dome tweeters).

It is not the speakers as I have tried different combo's with the rears with a pair of Control 1's and also some 1010i's. Just doesn't sound as good as it should in surround. I will try some cables and listen for any changes.

Thanks for the input.

Edit: positional and sound volumes/quality is the issue.