Xeon Boinc machine

[Amp34]

Thsi is just a general question thread really as i wont be able to do anything for a month or so anyway.I am wondering about building a dual core xeon machine for boinc etc. after seeing how cheap they can be had. Any suggestions about what speed processors to use, both for stock speed and overclocking? Most of the processors I have seen are either 3 or 3.4GH (E0 stepping i think)

I have also heard a lot of people seem to be using the Asus NCCH-DL board for overclocking. Does this board need special RAM or can you use normal stuff? I have had a look round but i cant find whether it does. Are there any other boards i should look out for?

What affect does RAM have on the crunching speed of the computer. I know about getting good timings etc for overclocking but does more RAM mean faster processing? Or will 512mb be just as good as 2GB on a pc that would run linux and boinc only.

I have a spare Hiper 580w PSU, if i used an adaptor to change the standard 4 pin to 8 pin would it be powerful enough to run a machine like this, ie amperage not wattage.

I was thinking of then just attaching a small (30GB) HD and a standard CD ROM drive for storage and loading up the pc at the start. The Motherboard above seems to have 2 VGA ports on it although from what i can see it doesnt have onboard graphics. Ill then use an old agp graphics card for the display if there are no onboard garphics.

Is there anything else i should know or anything else i would need (other than case and fans etc). Any help would be much appreciated.

 

[BillytheImpaler]

I've built a Dual Xeon 3.21GHz box for FAH that cost $600 so I know a thing or two about the procedure. I'm not up on the Dual core front though. I'll offer what I know.

I have also heard a lot of people seem to be using the Asus NCCH-DL board for overclocking. Does this board need special RAM or can you use normal stuff? I have had a look round but I cant find whether it does. Are there any other boards I should look out for?

I used the PC-DL. The NCCH-DL is about a hundred quid more and supports DDR2 memory. You do not need expensive registered (ECC) memory for the mobo.

What affect does RAM have on the crunching speed of the computer. I know about getting good timings etc for overclocking but does more RAM mean faster processing? Or will 512mb be just as good as 2GB on a pc that would run linux and boinc only.

Generally more DIMMs means higher latencies. If all it will ever do is crunch you sould not aim to overkill it on memory. What project are you running? How much RAM does it use for a single thread? IIRC SETI used about 40 per thread. IF you wanted 2 threads of SETI I think you'd be fine with a single DIMM of 512 or a pair of 256 in dual channel mode.

I have a spare Hiper 580w PSU, if i used an adaptor to change the standard 4 pin to 8 pin would it be powerful enough to run a machine like this, ie amperage not wattage.

Though the amperage matters I'll say you're fine. I'm overclocking and I run a 550 watter that puts out 36A on the 12V rail.

I was thinking of then just attaching a small (30GB) HD and a standard CD ROM drive for storage and loading up the pc at the start. The Motherboard above seems to have 2 VGA ports on it although from what i can see it doesnt have onboard graphics. Ill then use an old agp graphics card for the display if there are no onboard garphics.

I think you mean to say it has 2 serial ports. The mobo does not have onboard graphics. If all you'll ever display is the UNIX terminal I wouldn't even waste a pertfectly good AGP card. Snap a PCI card off of an auction site or ask nicely around here for a freebie. I have a drawer full of old PCI graphics cards.

Is there anything else i should know or anything else i would need (other than case and fans etc). Any help would be much appreciated.

The stock fans are very noisy. I don't mind it but if you are going to have this machine where it might annoy others you should consider moving up to something like the Swiftech CPU coolers.

You should also remember that these CPUs are VERY overclockable. I hioghly reccomend that you continue with the build. I'm sure you'll love it. I love mine.

 

[Amp34]

I've built a Dual Xeon 3.21GHz box for FAH that cost $600 so I know a thing or two about the procedure. I'm not up on the Dual core front though. I'll offer what I know.

I'v seen a few of your posts about this, they were one of the reasons i started thinking about doing something like this, darn you making me spend all my money

I am right in assuming that all new xeon processors are dual core?

I used the PC-DL. The NCCH-DL is about a hundred quid more and supports DDR2 memory. You do not need expensive registered (ECC) memory for the mobo.

So whats the main difference between the two boards, if i can find a PC-DL would it be a better bet? The new xeon chips have an FSB or 800mhz as opposd to 533 will they work in the PC-DL?

Generally more DIMMs means higher latencies. If all it will ever do is crunch you sould not aim to overkill it on memory. What project are you running? How much RAM does it use for a single thread? IIRC SETI used about 40 per thread. IF you wanted 2 threads of SETI I think you'd be fine with a single DIMM of 512 or a pair of 256 in dual channel mode.

Im thinking of ending up with literaly a machine with a version of linux (any suggestions on which variant?), a DC program and maybe a firewall. So with 4 seperate cores i would end up running 4 processes of seti, climate experiment etc. I dont know how much RAM linux takes up so between 512 and 1gb would be fine? Would running in dual channel make any difference, and is it supported on these boards? I assume it wont make any or only a very slight difference...

Though the amperage matters I'll say you're fine. I'm overclocking and I run a 550 watter that puts out 36A on the 12V rail.

Thats good then means i wont have to buy another psu.

I think you mean to say it has 2 serial ports. The mobo does not have onboard graphics. If all you'll ever display is the UNIX terminal I wouldn't even waste a pertfectly good AGP card. Snap a PCI card off of an auction site or ask nicely around here for a freebie. I have a drawer full of old PCI graphics cards.

Oops yeah, i have only seen small images of the board and i saw 2 ports that looked like VGAs, thats why i was a bit confused about the on board GFX. The GFX card im thinking of using is an old TNT2 AGP card that i have lying around, im not 100% sure it will fit in though

The stock fans are very noisy. I don't mind it but if you are going to have this machine where it might annoy others you should consider moving up to something like the Swiftech CPU coolers.

It'll be hidden away from people in my attic so noise isnt a problem, i assume they provide good cooling so an aftermarket job wont be needed?

You should also remember that these CPUs are VERY overclockable. I hioghly reccomend that you continue with the build. I'm sure you'll love it. I love mine.

Thanks for the help, hopefully when i get the spare money and time i will definitly start this

Also with these boards do you clock each processor seperatly or are the changes you make applied to both processors?

 

[BillytheImpaler]

I am right in assuming that all new xeon processors are dual core?

I don't think they are. I'm not sure that getting them new is really the way to go on this. You pay for a lot of depreciation, especially when the PM-based chips come out in a few months. If it were me, I would got for something on the Prestonia or Nocona cores. Get a CPU with the best cache/pound ratio and you'll be happy.

So whats the main difference between the two boards, if i can find a PC-DL would it be a better bet? The new xeon chips have an FSB or 800mhz as opposd to 533 will they work in the PC-DL?

The main difference is that the NCCH-DL takes DDR2 and the PC-DL can only take DDR. Beyond that the NCCH-DL has adjustable vDIMM settings and I think has support for more hard disks (as if that mattered to you). Both do support the 800MHz FSB AFAIK (don't quote me on that).

Im thinking of ending up with literaly a machine with a version of linux (any suggestions on which variant?), a DC program and maybe a firewall.

It's a personal preference thing, mostly. Most every distro has the option to do a "server" installation that installs only the basics. I've used FreeBSD, Mandrake, Ubuntu, and DSL in this way and all seemed to work just fine. When you say you want to rn a firewall, does that mean you want it to server as a hardware firewall for your whole network or do you just mean that you want that machine firewalled? If just the machine, you'll find that most distros already run a firewall be default.

So with 4 seperate cores i would end up running 4 processes of seti, climate experiment etc. I dont know how much RAM linux takes up so between 512 and 1gb would be fine? Would running in dual channel make any difference, and is it supported on these boards? I assume it wont make any or only a very slight difference...

You need to look up some projects and determine how much RAM they want to use. I know SETI doesnt use much but I have little knowledge beyond that. I know FAH has some WUs that want more than 350 MiB RAM so I had to install 2 GB to run 4 processes. I'm willing to bet that none of the present BOINC projects are as hungry. The OS itself is happy to run on a machine with 32 MiB RAM so you'll find that its memory consumption is almost negligible. I'd say that you would want 512 at least. If you calculate that your projects want more than that, go for the gig.

As for dual channel, yes the boards suppport it. It again matters how memory depoendant the project you want to run is. SETI benefits from faster memory but not all that much. I don't know about CPDN in this area. I'm willing to bet that it doesn't matter too much. Consider dual channel operation a bonus if you go that route. I wouldn't make it a priority, but it would be nice to have.

The GFX card im thinking of using is an old TNT2 AGP card that i have lying around, im not 100% sure it will fit in though

Explain. Why might it not fit? Is it a funky size/shape? Are you putting this in an odd case? The AGP card form factor is the same the world 'round as far as I've ever heard.

It'll be hidden away from people in my attic so noise isnt a problem, i assume they provide good cooling so an aftermarket job wont be needed?

The stock coolers are very good at what they do. If you don't care about noise, you're in business.

Also with these boards do you clock each processor seperatly or are the changes you make applied to both processors?

There is only one multiplier and one FSB. Everything you do to one is done to the other; they are a matched pair. That is why for dual CPUs you must have identical CPUs in each socket. If not, everything freaks out and it probably won't POST.

 

[Amp34]

I don't think they are. I'm not sure that getting them new is really the way to go on this. You pay for a lot of depreciation, especially when the PM-based chips come out in a few months. If it were me, I would got for something on the Prestonia or Nocona cores. Get a CPU with the best cache/pound ratio and you'll be happy.

I had a look, it seems that there are some dual core xeons but they're very expensive. I was thinking about getting a couple of 3gh or something like that off the bay. Does it atter that they are made by Dell or HP, im assuming it doesnt?

The main difference is that the NCCH-DL takes DDR2 and the PC-DL can only take DDR. Beyond that the NCCH-DL has adjustable vDIMM settings and I think has support for more hard disks (as if that mattered to you). Both do support the 800MHz FSB AFAIK (don't quote me on that).

I had a look round for the PC-DL board but everywhere keeps coming up with PCH -DL is that the same?

It's a personal preference thing, mostly. Most every distro has the option to do a "server" installation that installs only the basics. I've used FreeBSD, Mandrake, Ubuntu, and DSL in this way and all seemed to work just fine. When you say you want to rn a firewall, does that mean you want it to server as a hardware firewall for your whole network or do you just mean that you want that machine firewalled? If just the machine, you'll find that most distros already run a firewall be default.

I was thinking of going for Ubuntu as its supposedly easy for noobs. As for the firewall i was just thinking of having a firewall for the machine itself just to protect it allthough it'll be behind a router so it probably doesnt need it.

You need to look up some projects and determine how much RAM they want to use. I know SETI doesnt use much but I have little knowledge beyond that. I know FAH has some WUs that want more than 350 MiB RAM so I had to install 2 GB to run 4 processes. I'm willing to bet that none of the present BOINC projects are as hungry. The OS itself is happy to run on a machine with 32 MiB RAM so you'll find that its memory consumption is almost negligible. I'd say that you would want 512 at least. If you calculate that your projects want more than that, go for the gig.

Thanks for that, ill see about getting 1gb then just to be on the safe side

Explain. Why might it not fit? Is it a funky size/shape? Are you putting this in an odd case? The AGP card form factor is the same the world 'round as far as I've ever heard.

Sorry i'm being stupid yeah it should be fine.

The stock coolers are very good at what they do. If you don't care about noise, you're in business.

Is it pretty easy to get aftermarket coolers that will fit?

There is only one multiplier and one FSB. Everything you do to one is done to the other; they are a matched pair. That is why for dual CPUs you must have identical CPUs in each socket. If not, everything freaks out and it probably won't POST.

That makes sense, i was wondering how you could clock different cores the same, ill make sure i get a matching pair then.

Thanks for all the info!

 

[BillytheImpaler]

I had a look, it seems that there are some dual core xeons but they're very expensive. I was thinking about getting a couple of 3gh or something like that off an auction. Does it atter that they are made by Dell or HP, im assuming it doesnt?

HP or Dell? Are you looking at whole systems or processors alone? The manufacturer who originally bought the CPU does not matter. What does matter is the stepping. This can determine whether the CPU will be a great overclocker or not. If you find that the cost is a serious issue with the Nocona based chips you can always go the route I did and get D1 stepping 1.6GHz LV Prestonias and overclock them until they squeal

I had a look round for the PC-DL board but everywhere keeps coming up with PCH -DL is that the same?

After looking around I see that Asus has (apparently) removed the PC-DL Deluxe from their web site. Why? Who knows? I'm pretty sure now that it does not support Nocona based chips (800 MHz). You'll need to move up to a NCCH-DL if you get one of those. if you go the route I went with massive overclocking, you should nab a PC-DL off of an auction site for around 200 USD (convert to GBP at your leisure). The PCH-DL definitely is different from the PC-Dl judging from the pictures on Asus's site. The mobo layout is different and it appears to have two PCI-X slots, two PCI slots and an AGP slot. The PC-DL has 5 PCI slots and an AGP slot. It appers to use the same i875 chipset so it is unsuitable for 800MHz FSB chips.

I was thinking of going for Ubuntu as its supposedly easy for noobs. As for the firewall i was just thinking of having a firewall for the machine itself just to protect it allthough it'll be behind a router so it probably doesnt need it.

With Ubuntu ypu'll load the isntall disk and boot to it. There'll bew a boot options screen where you can enter commands before it actually begins the installation. Here, type server to do a minimal installation. This will load up all the drivers and jazz, start up the shorewall firewall at boot and take you to a command line. It will have no GUI, as God intended for monster crunchers

Thanks for that, ill see about getting 1gb then just to be on the safe side

You'll want 2x512 PC3200 for dual channel action then.

Is it pretty easy to get aftermarket coolers that will fit?

There are a few good manufacturers for them and the products are very good. However, they are not aimed at enthusiasts like you and I. They are aimed at companies that use them in very expensive workstations. The cost of aftermarket coolers is, in my oponion, not worth the improvements. The only thing I might change on mine is a switch to watercooling so I can dig for another 100% on the overclock.

 

[Amp34]

HP or Dell? Are you looking at whole systems or processors alone? The manufacturer who originally bought the CPU does not matter. What does matter is the stepping. This can determine whether the CPU will be a great overclocker or not. If you find that the cost is a serious issue with the Nocona based chips you can always go the route I did and get D1 stepping 1.6GHz LV Prestonias and overclock them until they squeal

Im buying a pair of processors on their own but some said Dell ect. I assumed there wouldnt be any difference in the processors but just wanted to check just in case.

After looking around I see that Asus has (apparently) removed the PC-DL Deluxe from their web site. Why? Who knows? I'm pretty sure now that it does not support Nocona based chips (800 MHz). You'll need to move up to a NCCH-DL if you get one of those. if you go the route I went with massive overclocking, you should nab a PC-DL off of an auction site for around 200 USD (convert to GBP at your leisure). The PCH-DL definitely is different from the PC-Dl judging from the pictures on Asus's site. The mobo layout is different and it appears to have two PCI-X slots, two PCI slots and an AGP slot. The PC-DL has 5 PCI slots and an AGP slot. It appers to use the same i875 chipset so it is unsuitable for 800MHz FSB chips.

I had a look around and it seems the PCH-DL is just a newer version of the PC-DL, it seems to have the same OCing ability according to a number of foums so if i cant find any PC-DL MBs ill get one of those instead as the bay and other places dont seem to have any.

I have had more trouble looking for an 8 pin adaptor for the PSU, there are a couple of american sellers but for a small piece of wire with postage its pretty expensive. Ill see if i can find some in the UK somewhere before i get one of those.

With Ubuntu ypu'll load the isntall disk and boot to it. There'll bew a boot options screen where you can enter commands before it actually begins the installation. Here, type server to do a minimal installation. This will load up all the drivers and jazz, start up the shorewall firewall at boot and take you to a command line. It will have no GUI, as God intended for monster crunchers

No GUI sounds dodgey steep learning curve comes to mind, but then this is just a project of play so i get even more play.

There are a few good manufacturers for them and the products are very good. However, they are not aimed at enthusiasts like you and I. They are aimed at companies that use them in very expensive workstations. The cost of aftermarket coolers is, in my oponion, not worth the improvements. The only thing I might change on mine is a switch to watercooling so I can dig for another 100% on the overclock.

Another 100% OC that'll be one powerful system! So ill stay with the stock ones then if i get them with the processors.

Do you know of any links that go through overclocking xeons, i'v found a couple but was wondering which ones you found useful?

thanks very much for your help, its much appreciated!

 

[Amp34]

What PSU are you running and does it have dual rails? Is the 36A coming from just 1 12v rail or more? Im just wondering as my hiper is dual rail from the looks of it i need a single rail PSU.

 

[BillytheImpaler]

I sue a Sparkle FSP550-60PLG. It's a single rail PSU, which I understand is better for what we're doing here. It cost me $103.50

As long as you keep the peripherals to a minimum I don't think that having the dual rail PSU will hurt too much. In the worst case scenario you have to buy a new one. Definitely try using your Hiper if you can find the adaptor sockets.

 

[Amp34]

Ok thanks for that. Ill have a go with the hiper then, think i managed to find a converter as well so alls well at the mo!