Soldato
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XIM3 round the corner (mouse and keyboard support)
- Thread starter Zensuji
- Start date
Dude you're gonna make him blush
To be fair though, you look at OCuK lately and all you see is bickering in posts. Look at this topic for example, the last 80 posts have been bickering... When someone comes on and constructively puts their opinion across (which differs from 90% of this forums opinion) and leads to sensible debate, then it's a very much welcome change.
Actually, I have only been a XFPS, XIM, and XIM2 user, though I do intend on getting a XIM3. As to your question, if Microsoft did enable mouse support on their console, I am quite sure that I would play both single and multiplayer games more often than I currently do (I'm rather opposed to LIVE Gold being a paid service considering its limited place in matchmaking), given what I would interpret as a customer-oriented decision on Microsoft's part. The majority of my time would no doubt go to games that supported such a feature, but the side-effect of an increased opinion of Microsoft and likelihood of my being less likely to let a LIVE subscription run out could not have no effect on my playing other, non-mouse games. And in such games that supported the option, I would have to default to a mouse-only setting. To be honest, a native mouse versus controller playlist would be pointless. There is no sport in pitting a driver-supported mouse against a joystick. The disadvantages due to the speed possibilities between the two would be too great to even consider ignoring, and any such option would rightfully be a ghost town populated only by the unwary and people on either side of the board who were looking for a cheap laugh. I more or less use the same reasoning when playing PC games, that I would rather play against mouse users due to fairness issues, but still consider the fact that if someone were playing with a controller, the choice to do so must have been theirs alone and for good reason. Yes, the same reasoning could be used to enter the mouse v. controller playlist, but it still relies on the need for mouse players. Given the availability of a mouse-only playlist, why would one ever bother to not select it if they preferred to have other mouse users present?
There is one possibility I would like to touch on that wasn't particularly highlighted. Obviously, not all games in such a setting would sport the mouse option, and I would still consider playing them using a XIM because the speed and applicable accuracy differences present with a native mouse disappear in the switch to emulating a joystick. I try to explain my reasoning behind this in the last block of text in my next response.
EDIT: I do recognize the possibility that there are XIM users who would complain at the introduction of such an option, but such persons, should they exist, would coincide with those who I feel have bought a XIM for the wrong reasons, somewhat like how one might buy a private hack, but different in the nature of the possible benefit offered--the hack being designed to take advantage of and often alter gameplay to give the user an assured edge while the XIM is designed to simply change the way a player interacts with a game without, I believe, lending an advantage as a naturally occurring part of the process. Given that I didn't bankrupt anyone in the process, I wouldn't oppose everyone having the option to use a XIM without personal expenditure. Obviously that will not work, but the better alternative would be Microsoft allowing developers the option to include mouse control in their games followed by developers doing just that. Hopefully (were it to happen, though I am doubtful) at least singleplayer modes, as I can understand smaller releases not implementing it in multiplayer over fears of a split community cutting in to the game's success. /EDIT
Dude you're gonna make him blush
Things look to have at least calmed down a bit in here. Everyone seems to have established their points on the subject, so now the debate is focused more on discussing said standpoints instead of trying to override each other. I don't intend to be too much of a dick about things when I'm serious and shouldn't have resorted to that talking out of the ass comment I made in reference to orderoftheflame. It could have been avoided if instead I better explained why I don't feel the XIM grants an unfair advantage when they kept returning to that point.
My idea is that, yes, a mouse emulating a joystick does add the possibility for more precise control much in the same way a larger joystick with a greater amount of travel (same sensitivity minimum, levels between, and maximum) can, but that the ability to physically manage the controller to use that increased range has to exist in the player for them to be able to perform well with it. Yet despite that, a player using the thumbstick could still attain and hold a level of proficiency that allowed them to perfectly (without considering things like metabolism, etc.) match someone using either the emulated thumbstick or the larger joystick who had also perfected their technique. This isn't true when comparing a driver-supported mouse to the joystick because the possible maximum of performance between the two devices is different. Essentially, a mouse through the XIM can help facilitate an increase in ability within a game, but does not grant it or alter the limits placed upon that ability in any way from those of the thumbstick. In that way, the argument to me isn't centered on whether one controller is better than another, but what a player should be allowed to do in order to interact with a game. Thumb versus arm and such, and I don't care to draw back a comparison to things that we could never pinpoint down to a single cause, what with genetics and personal experience suddenly thrown in to the mix. Moving the argument that far back introduces characteristics of our being that could be drawn just as easily in to an argument of gamepad versus gamepad, where fairness of differing player dexterity, diet, or alertness are the subject of debate.
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For the record i agree that you've made a good contribution to this thread CEOrko and i apologise for my tongue in cheek hax comments earlier, i was feeling childish
I disagree with you but that's the whole point of a forum - a place for healthy debate. If you choose to continue as a member on these forums I would be pleased.
Even if you hax
I disagree with you but that's the whole point of a forum - a place for healthy debate. If you choose to continue as a member on these forums I would be pleased.
Even if you hax
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I'm getting a XIM, but let me tell you why.
I've been playing FPS's on PC for years (mainly cs, up to 1.6), but it's getting harder and harder to find IRL friends who will play with me. I still love PCs and will never abandon them, but I want to play Halo with my friends (since the MW2 fiasco on the PC I will never buy a COD game again - on any platform).
I routinely get frustrated with encounters in SWAT or Snipers where I the thumbsticks just prevent me from being accurate enough to make the shot. I feel 'dumb' when playing FPS's with a joystick. XIM will let me play MY game, MY console, the way I want to play it- with the precision and accuracy a m/kb setup allows.
Sure, for a little while I'll be rocking SWAT, Snipers, and Doubles. But give me enough time and I'll be matched up with people of similar skill with XIM or just ridiculously good controller players. Thank you matchmaking.
also, boo on my name getting truncated
tl;dr not getting XIM simply to pwn people, I'm getting it to do things the way I know how to do them
I've been playing FPS's on PC for years (mainly cs, up to 1.6), but it's getting harder and harder to find IRL friends who will play with me. I still love PCs and will never abandon them, but I want to play Halo with my friends (since the MW2 fiasco on the PC I will never buy a COD game again - on any platform).
I routinely get frustrated with encounters in SWAT or Snipers where I the thumbsticks just prevent me from being accurate enough to make the shot. I feel 'dumb' when playing FPS's with a joystick. XIM will let me play MY game, MY console, the way I want to play it- with the precision and accuracy a m/kb setup allows.
Sure, for a little while I'll be rocking SWAT, Snipers, and Doubles. But give me enough time and I'll be matched up with people of similar skill with XIM or just ridiculously good controller players. Thank you matchmaking.
also, boo on my name getting truncated
tl;dr not getting XIM simply to pwn people, I'm getting it to do things the way I know how to do them
I completely disagree. If you look at specialized peripherals for games, some of them may be for more realistic simulation, but more often than not, the peripherals are designed the way they are because they are naturally better for a given genre.
I suggest you look up topics on User Experience, Cognitive Science, Interaction Design, etc.... and specifically look for something called "the mental model".
A mouse in First Person Shooters is absolutely the best input method available due to it's accurate mental model of people "looking around". As soon as you equate the mouse to your player's head/eyes, it all makes sense for newcomers.
Arcade Sticks are not chosen for their uncanny ability to simulate.... fighting, right? And while wheels may offer a better simulated driving experience, good wheels also offer a much more superb control interface, a perfect mental model, and higher precision for turning, accelerating, and braking (assuming you have pedals).
I would wager around 90+% of XIM users are users because they were/are PC gamers first. It has more to do with being able to utilize an input device you've already spent several years learning than it does with instantly being able to "pwn n00bs".
With more and more developers thinking of consoles first and leaving the PC players the ported scraps, I know many players who want to make the transition to XBL simply for the active and competitive community that exists. However, having to learn how to walk all over again isn't very appealing to many of them. When XIM came around, it made the transition much smoother... I know from personal experience but this has been the story I've heard over and over and over again from other users.
I've been using a M&KB competitively for 15+ years... that is why I "pwn n00bs" with an XIM... not because it magically makes you awesome.
I've also being playing competitive PC fps from the start. This doesn't change the fact that using a XIM - if it does what it promises - gives you an advantage over a pad user. Especially at a competitive level where split seconds make the difference between winning or losing a round.
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I have about 28 years of gaming experience... that is why I "pwn n00bs" with my control pad... not because I use an unlicensed peripheral that makes me awesome.
They sure do protest a little bit too much, if I was so certain that I wasn't cheating / getting a considerable advantage on others then I don't think I would write with such verbosity.Lol at the number of new people signing up with their walls of text, defending their cheating.
Lol at the number of new people signing up with their walls of text, defending their cheating.
Technically it's defending your idea of cheating, and this account was made in March for a similar, but different thread. Please try to be more specific in your criticism of certain posts should you disagree with them. I'm not impervious to being influenced by another persons' arguments, so the effort wouldn't be in vain. Perhaps you will see something I have continually failed to consider over the years.
No it's because they have something they have experience of using and how much advantage it gains them. I'd rather read some facts about how the stuff works than from a ton of people who just dismissed them or guessed at the advantage without ever using something.
No one will ever agree on this stuff because everyone has a different idea of where the line is or what gives an advantage.
To me an arcade stick is an advantage. Even if you buy it purely for comfort it's still making it easier for you. Yep you can still find players better on the pad, there are always a few freaks out there
The same with the wheel, F1 2010 was infinately easier with a wheel to maintain a smooth turn in and hold the lines. This game was obviously designed around the wheel and the pad secondary.
Rubbish; A mouse is not a natural alternative to a gun. It feels natural for us all as we've been playing FPS games on a PC for so long; obviously, the mouse is the best input method around, nobody is stating that it isn't. However, you're playing on a console which is designed and licensed to use pads with no Keyboard or mice in sight. If you then start creating software and hardware which allows this to happen, you're getting around this and hence cheating.
As for your other argument; Every one would have to learn to walk again, as you say. That's the idea of a level playing field there there isn't extra unlicensed prepherals causing an uneven playing field.
For the record I've also been playing FPS games since the mid 90's, and competative games. I used to run the biggest UK leage for TFC, along as playing for some of the better clans existing; Also CS pre 1.6 and post Source which I used to play competitvely, so I'm in a good place to consider both sides of the control methods. Although I no longer play PC games due to me not keeping up with the hardware and using my PC only as a media server now. I'm happy with the xbox and the social aspect and play for fun rather than looking for the combative edge.
K+M should not be used on a console. End of.
People make it sound like using a joypad is akin to controlling the game with your feet.... its not that bad. If you primarily use a joypad then it takes time to get used to a mouse and keyboard set up and vice versa but its not impossible. It takes time and effort is all.
Heh when I first came from PC gaming to the 360 that's kinda how I felt! It was still a while before I'd play an FPS with a pad but after practice it's no big deal.
I'd been a kb + m gamer for years, hell I'd been gaming on PCs since I got my old 12mhz 286 and never bothered with consoles at all until the 360 so it was a big change for me coming from the PC.
I still maintain using a keyboard and mouse gives extra control/precision you simply cannot get on a pad and do see this adapter as an unfair advantage. I'd like to use one myself though just so I could experience it first hand.
It does give you extra precision, mainly because we've all been using them for years now;
A controller you can get used to, but due to the interface I don't believe you could ever get to the same level of precision as a mouse;
The whole debate is rubbish any ways, as MS doesn't allow you to use a K+M on the 360, it's only for a piece of kit (and a bloody clever one at that), which bypasses the security;
A controller you can get used to, but due to the interface I don't believe you could ever get to the same level of precision as a mouse;
The whole debate is rubbish any ways, as MS doesn't allow you to use a K+M on the 360, it's only for a piece of kit (and a bloody clever one at that), which bypasses the security;
Amusingly enough, I have a friend who would aim better than me in Halo:CE using his toes. This was during my time of owning a PS2, so I did have some exposure to console FPS like TimeSplitters, Red Faction 2, and Killzone. Even though I could suck at playing a fighter like Guilty Gear X, after a week of blistering my thumbs I ended up able to play the game without problems. Attempts aimed at doing the same with shooters have been unsuccessful for me.
OK, let's pretend for a minute that the mouse gives you no advantage whatsoever. What about the keyboard? Having every button under your fingertips. You can jump, go prone, switch weapon, reload, interact with care packages and so on whilst still aiming all the time. You can't do that on the joypad unless you're happy to contort your hand into early arthritis.
100% honest I could never get on with FPS and a keyboard. Sure I could aim better with the mouse but even when I bought a wolfclaw I struggled with keys in comparison to a joypad.
Of course everyone has a different experience but I could never get on gaming with a keyboard.