Monaco Grand Prix 2016, Monte Carlo - Race 6/21

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Soldato
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As well as the dry :)

which explains why Alonso destroyed Jenson in Spain in the dry? Oh wait...


9. J. Button McLaren



19. F. Alonso McLaren

Funny how when Jenson beats Alonso in a race no one wants to mention it on here, but when Alonso beats Jenson people want to have these little digs at JB.

Selective, very selective :D
 
Soldato
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I know people love a target to hate, Vettel previously, Rosberg now but all the shouts of what a rubbish driver he is as shown by his performance yesterday doesn't really stand up when you think he's won the Monaco GP for the last 3 years running does it?

Didn't he have a technical problem? (I only caught the highlights)
 
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I'd love to see Lewis' outlap after he switched from Extreme Wets to Ultra Softs on lap ~37, he must have been tip-toeing through some corners, with a positively awful outlap time.

Lewis pitted while ahead of Ricci, Ricci came in next lap with a massive pit crew blunder with no tyres ready (losing 5+ seconds?), only for Ricci to exit the pits right on Lewis' tail.

He lost 10 seconds. It was a 13.6 second stop.



But that's not a motor race. If that's what Monaco is then why not just rock up for the weekend and do some time trials? At night?

Monaco's history is constantly stuffed down my throat, but when we get there the drivers and the commentators are pretty honest about the poor racing and lacking of opportunity to overtake.

Heck, if it isn't about overtaking then forget the 'race' and just sell the DVD highlights of qualifying.

Racing isn't all about overtaking, but even on the track where its impossible to overtake, some still managed it...

It's still the ultimate circuit driving challenge, and while it's totally not appropriate for 2016 cars, that's what makes it such a challenge.
 

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Soldato
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I know people love a target to hate, Vettel previously, Rosberg now but all the shouts of what a rubbish driver he is as shown by his performance yesterday doesn't really stand up when you think he's won the Monaco GP for the last 3 years running does it?

Didn't he have a technical problem? (I only caught the highlights)

Rosberg is a fine racing driver. I think the only people who argue with that is the ones who get butthurt when he beats Lewis so they don't like him for it.

It's the same with Perez yesterday, yeah I like Checo, yes he's a decent racer - but there were people tweeting in yesterday saying "why doesn't he have a place in a top team yet".... Seriously!?

Did they only start watching F1 from the beginning of this season? I can only conclude that they must have - Perez has been in a top team, against a top WDC driver and got thrashed to bits, so much so they he ended up getting fired.

That's why his agents in advanced talks with FI to stay on because he knows if he joins RB or Ferrari against Vet or Ric he's going to get battered again, just like he did against JB.
 
Caporegime
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I know people love a target to hate, Vettel previously, Rosberg now but all the shouts of what a rubbish driver he is as shown by his performance yesterday doesn't really stand up when you think he's won the Monaco GP for the last 3 years running does it?

Didn't he have a technical problem? (I only caught the highlights)

There was talk of him having a brake problem.

Ricciardo was royally screwed. He was called to the pits by the team, only for them to not be ready? Inexcusable!
 
Soldato
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Didn't anyone find it telling that Rosberg let Hamilton through with no resistance whatsoever? I.e. You've been a naughty boy and your trying to show the team you are actually a good boy? We all remember when they told Hamilton to let him past and he was like I'm not slowing down for him, yet there was none of that here. I guess what I am saying is, are they privately blaming Nico for the last race error?
 
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I just think they're worried they've got a challenge on their hands from Red Bull in the title races, as we don't know how strong the new engine is - if it's half a second as has been claimed, then the Red Bull won't be far off the Mercedes at all, and given how many points Mercedes threw away in Spain, they were always going to be guarded and sensible this weekend.

There was a distinct lack of fallout from either party in Spain and it looked clear even in the moments after the contact that both knew they'd made errors, so I'm sure both were just told to rein it in a bit for the next couple of races and the switch was made voluntarily as a result. Why on earth aren't we hearing these conversations though (assuming he was asked)?


I know people love a target to hate, Vettel previously, Rosberg now but all the shouts of what a rubbish driver he is as shown by his performance yesterday doesn't really stand up when you think he's won the Monaco GP for the last 3 years running does it?

Didn't he have a technical problem? (I only caught the highlights)

He couldn't get any temperature in his tyres and brakes on the wets, and once he was leaped in the pitstops he couldn't do anything about it - it would be the same problem at the end of the race when it got wet again. Both Mercedes were very poor at preparing their tyres yesterday, but Hamilton managed to get some heat in his following Rosberg - perhaps the heat and dirty air from Rosberg's car and was enough to switch them on, as Hamilton himself was rubbish in clear air later in the race until it had properly dried up.

Hamilton did well on the wets and did a decent job holding Ricciardo off, but then Ricciardo had no hope of passing him on the slicks as there's only one line. Hamilton cracked under the pressure and was lucky it was where there was run off and Ricciardo had to attempt to squeeze past on the wet bit. It was never a penalty though - just Ricciardo frustrated, though understandably so!

Ricciardo would have won by at least 20-30 seconds if his team hadn't screwed up that stop - he was miles faster than Hamilton for 80% of that race.
 
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Caporegime
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Ricciardo lost about 9 seconds in the pits - his stop was 13.1 secs.

What really grates on me is Benson's article on why Hamilton's drive classes him as 'great' - Rosberg kindly letting him by and a pit stop blunder is hardly a great drive. Yes, in terms of luck it's probably fair that all panned out for him but it's not down to a great drive imo.

Well, firstly the ultras were the worst possible dry tire to be on, he lost almost the same 10 seconds Ricciardo did in the pitstop by an equally slow outlap due to those tires and multiple bad laps after VSC trying to get those tires up to temp during the stint. The reason Rosberg let him past is because of how much better Hamilton was driving the same car, he was 3 seconds a lap faster in those conditions. Had Rosberg not let him past, Hamilton would have still gone long on wets and done one pitstop less and finished 4th or higher, with the massive gap back to Alonso and Rosberg.

He was the fastest guy on the track on the wets when released and gained on Ricciardo, he was the only guy who made the one stopper work, the only guy who kept decent pace on wet tires in inter conditions, he kept Ricciardo who was 6 seconds faster a lap behind him for what 8-10 laps before pitting and making the one stop work. Ricciardo's lap including pit stop was only 4 seconds slower than Hamilton's despite a 10 second delay in the pitstop so without Hamilton on the wets holding him back he did a 6 second faster lap. Hamilton defended a car with that pace for ages then on the wrong tire defended for a further 47 laps brilliantly.

Regardless of being let through and Ricciardo's pitstop his actual driving and times on the tires he had were immense and trashed what anyone else could achieve on those tires.
 
Caporegime
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Didn't anyone find it telling that Rosberg let Hamilton through with no resistance whatsoever? I.e. You've been a naughty boy and your trying to show the team you are actually a good boy? We all remember when they told Hamilton to let him past and he was like I'm not slowing down for him, yet there was none of that here. I guess what I am saying is, are they privately blaming Nico for the last race error?

I would say, yes, people like to interpret it differently but the FIA's statement was pretty clear that Hamilton got a significant part of his car alongside and was then pushed off the track. Politics, if a team isn't pushing for a penalty a penalty is rarely given. If that was say Alonso being pushed off by Rosberg then Mclaren would be screaming at the stewards and demanding a penalty and they absolutely would have given him one, probably a 10 place grid penalty at least to be honest.

Incidents between team mates have always been dealt with extremely differently by stewards than incidents between different teams. Again they quite specifically state in their report that Rosberg was at fault and did something wrong but no punishment. Hamilton may have thought at the time it was his fault or he may have been reciting what PR team came up with in terms of not laying blame down.

Ultimately though Rosberg was performing so badly that Hamilton would likely have gotten him eventually and it looks less bad to play the fair team mate letting Hamilton through than being passed at the unpassable track by your team mate.

Hamilton didn't let Rosberg by in Hungary in 14 because Rosberg never actually got within a second of him and Ham would have to back right off to let him by. Hamilton was all over the back of Rosberg for lap after lap, any other track and he'd have been by him 5 laps earlier on his own.
 
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I enjoyed the race a lot more than I thought I would. I still can't decide whether I like Monaco or not. It's brilliant as a spectacle but I feel like it would be better as a race if they created one or two more overtaking opportunities. I know that's unlikely going to happen due to the logistics of the circuit but there's almost no point in watching after Saturday.
 
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Didn't anyone find it telling that Rosberg let Hamilton through with no resistance whatsoever? I.e. You've been a naughty boy and your trying to show the team you are actually a good boy? We all remember when they told Hamilton to let him past and he was like I'm not slowing down for him, yet there was none of that here. I guess what I am saying is, are they privately blaming Nico for the last race error?

I think it was very telling tbh. That was my first thought, I can't imagine him doing it before this.
 
Soldato
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which explains why Alonso destroyed Jenson in Spain in the dry? Oh wait...


9. J. Button McLaren



19. F. Alonso McLaren

Funny how when Jenson beats Alonso in a race no one wants to mention it on here, but when Alonso beats Jenson people want to have these little digs at JB.

Selective, very selective :D

Alonso retired from 12th and was right behind Button for the entire race until his problems.

Thats the only race Button has outscored Alonso this season.

http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2016/spanish-grand-prix/2016-spanish-grand-prix-race-report/

Going back to my previous post though. Still all anecdotal given the number of races so far. But Button's perceived advantage in the wet is also all anecdotal.
 
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Alonso retired from 12th and was right behind Button for the entire race until his problems.

Thats the only race Button has outscored Alonso this season.

http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2016/spanish-grand-prix/2016-spanish-grand-prix-race-report/

Going back to my previous post though. Still all anecdotal given the number of races so far. But Button's perceived advantage in the wet is also all anecdotal.

Yes but you're still being selective, which is partly my point.

Alonso crashes out in Oz due to his own fault and misjudging the lines, breaking points - effectively killing Jenson's chances of points with the SC then coming out and fluffing his strategy up.

Button's engine broke in Bahrain, until then he was battling for good points and ahead of Alonso. (remember how frustrated he was on the radio - "Arggghh!!")

In China - Button was in 7th place, Alonso in 12th, SC came out, Button told to pit but Alonso stayed out - Alonso on SC restart came back out 3rd, Button 11th.

Barcelona, Jenson beats Alonso fairly, much better pace and simply had the better race of the pair.

Monaco I'd say was Alonso's race, qualified quicker and finished higher up, but again, part of this was due to Jenson pitting a lap too early which he said after the race, thus getting stuck behind the Manor of Pascal and unable to overtake with the Merc engine.

Bottas was stuck behind Pascal for even longer showing how difficult it was to overtake - and it's Monaco after all. If he'd pitted when Alonso did Jenson would have been on for a net 6th place finish.

It's not all black and white in F1 :)

All in all there's hardly anything between the drivers except for a few strategy errors and lucky SC windows etc.
 
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Soldato
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There was talk of him having a brake problem.

Ricciardo was royally screwed. He was called to the pits by the team, only for them to not be ready? Inexcusable!

After P3 where RBR revealed that their car was pretty quick, Mercedes made some alterations to the car setup to make it over steer more into the corners. Rosberg was uncomfortable with this, especially in the wet conditions. He was unable to push which meant the tyres cooled down, he then couldn't brake hard enough which then made those cool down as well, which then meant even colder tyres. Somehow though, Lewis was able to keep his car in its operating range despite going at the same speed as Rosberg.

Didn't anyone find it telling that Rosberg let Hamilton through with no resistance whatsoever? I.e. You've been a naughty boy and your trying to show the team you are actually a good boy? We all remember when they told Hamilton to let him past and he was like I'm not slowing down for him, yet there was none of that here. I guess what I am saying is, are they privately blaming Nico for the last race error?

If Rosberg had been a properly naughty boy he would have been told to move over far earlier than he did, and long before Ricciardo had extended his lead to over 10 seconds.
 
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After P3 where RBR revealed that their car was pretty quick, Mercedes made some alterations to the car setup to make it over steer more into the corners. Rosberg was uncomfortable with this, especially in the wet conditions. He was unable to push which meant the tyres cooled down, he then couldn't brake hard enough which then made those cool down as well, which then meant even colder tyres. Somehow though, Lewis was able to keep his car in its operating range despite going at the same speed as Rosberg.

As above, Hamilton was in Rosberg's dirty air, which meant a little less cooling for the brakes, keeping them and the tyres warmer. When Hamilton had to warm his tyres and brakes himself later in the race he couldn't do it either until the track was much drier.
 
Caporegime
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So since the supposed belief that Jenson is a master in the wet is all anecdotal, can we now say Alonso > Button in the wet?

Button was a chancer in the wet, if he did the same as everybody else he would almost certainly stay behind everyone which is why he would always do the opposite, when it payed off he got the plaudits when it didn't nobody really gave it two thoughts.

Monaco isn't about overtaking; it's about each driver against the track. I'd hate to see it leave the F1 calendar but I'd equally hate to see it joined by similar tracks.

All of the other circuits which were a challenge have been either dumbed down to a car park with squiggly lines or replaced, Monaco only remains because of its commercial value.
 
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Button was a chancer in the wet, if he did the same as everybody else he would almost certainly stay behind everyone which is why he would always do the opposite, when it payed off he got the plaudits when it didn't nobody really gave it two thoughts.

Chancer? Haha. He can read a race track exceptionally well and feel where the grip is on wet, dry and drying tarmac. In 2010 at the Chinese Grand Prix, he wasn't the only driver to stay out on slicks whilst the rest of the field pitted for intermediates, Rosberg did as well, but it's testament to Button's skills in the wet or rain that he has the confidence to do that. Everyone else bottled it. Button won the race.

Same with Australia in 2010, proved he has a finesse and unmatched skill for treading and finding the quickest line of a wet race track after pitting and being the first onto slicks. He won the race.

Hungary 2011. Started as a wet race, you could physically see the drivers tip-toeing around the track being on the inters? when they should have been on full wets. I remember watching that race in a caravan on Holiday knowing Button would win it. Always feel confident that he's got that much more confidence in those conditions than any other driver. What sticks out in my mind is Hamilton spinning off, and looking like a complete rookie, almost collecting Di Resta as he performed half a donut to align himself with the race track again, didn't see Button do that, infact he was flawless for the entire race and again, he won the race.

There's plenty more times where Button has proved his mastery in the wet and made other drivers look like mere mortals.

Canada 2011 (and the greatest race of all time) Stunning move on Webber that was just after the wall of champions, on slicks, 150mph+ dipping all 4 wheels off the racing line well onto the wet track and performing an overtake in order for him to pressure Vettel, and pressure Vettel off the track. Again, won the race.

Plenty more times where he's demonstrated a peerless understanding and feeling for a race car in slicks on a wet surface. As he put it it was probably down to his old man being too tight/stubborn to buy him wet tyres for his Go-Kart when he was a kid.

An interesting insight into Jenson from his current race engineer...

“Jenson is like a swan,” says his McLaren-Honda race engineer Tom Stallard. “He’s very smooth with his hands, which is the bit you can see on television, but his feet work like mad on the pedals. He balances the car with his feet a lot more than other drivers, and he seems to do it effortlessly.

“A classic Jenson performance was his pole lap at Spa in 2012. His hands would have you believe that he was out for a Saturday afternoon drive, but his feet were working like crazy on the pedals, modulating brake and throttle inputs, and the result was pole position.”
 
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Soldato
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Two things that stood out in that race to me (not sure if they have been discussed or not):

1) Perez on his out from the pit was all over the yellow line, and I am sure he actually crossed it. That's a penalty right there... What type of pen though? Would that have mean't Vettle would have got third?

2) How come Hamilton didn't have to yield when defending from Ricciardo after he straight lined the chicane? Ok, he didn't straight line it that much, but I would say he didn't make the corner whilst defending and potentially gained from it.

I am expecting the 2nd point has been discussed already.
 
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