Electrical / lighting question - downlights in the bedroom

[Participant]

Hi

Next on the DIY project list is some downlights in the master bedroom. We currently only have one pendant and it's insufficient light, so I'm looking at installing 6 downlights with dimmable LED bulbs, based on this sort of layout:



I'll then plaster over the hole left by the pendant (either that or fit a ceiling fan, not sure yet).

I'm comfortable with wiring, drilling, running cable, etc. as I've done it before, however I've got a few specific questions about this installation:

• What LED bulbs are reliable dimmers, i.e. non-fussy about the dimmer used?
• Any recommendations for a good quality two gang dimmer switch that will work with low power, i.e. only a couple of LED bulbs?
• I want the far two LEDs to work off one gang, and the other four over the bed area to work off the other gang. Will using only two bulbs off one gang cause any problems?
• Is there a recommended distance from the wall that each downlight should be placed?
• Any other issues you can foresee?

I can easily drop another cable down to the current one gang one way switch from the loft, between the brick and the stud wall, then fit a two gang backplate / switch.

Many thanks for any thoughts.

 

[R B Customs]

yea I can help you here!!

Hi

Next on the DIY project list is some downlights in the master bedroom. We currently only have one pendant and it's insufficient light, so I'm looking at installing 6 downlights with dimmable LED bulbs, based on this sort of layout:



I'll then plaster over the hole left by the pendant (either that or fit a ceiling fan, not sure yet).

you don't need to plaster over the hole - it's likely to be very small, but it can be relativly tricky yo fill as the air pressure from above tends to 'poo' the filler out ( ha ha) I've done 3 now and my method is to use car body filler, slightly concave as it's fairly hard to sand on a ceiling; this is just to fill the hole - the trick is to put masking tape over the area you have filled and press it all down - this makes it smooth and stops it from being forced out by the air above and gravity - I have a photo of this that I took the other day as I was going to post about it.

you will be left with a good surface that you can then use a finer filler on - I like red devil or polycell ONEFILL - slap it on, sand it back the next day in seconds, seal it then paint it.

I'm comfortable with wiring, drilling, running cable, etc. as I've done it before, however I've got a few specific questions about this installation:

• What LED bulbs are reliable dimmers, i.e. non-fussy about the dimmer used?
• 

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• these. The'ye very very good. I've tested 4 types of dimmable LED's now and these are the best. The miniumum you can dim, iv'e found, is 4. 6 will be fine, but I know you want less. THe dimmer I'm about to talk about has a soft-start feature whichdoes have a bit of lag to it when turning on, so be aware of that, it also doesn't start so softly with 4 bulbs - add more to smooth it out.
  
• you say not fussy about a dimmer, but you have to be fussy to be honest. use a varilight V-pro dimmer. I've tried the green aurora ones, and they are junk. V pro all the way! you can buy the modules on their own, you don't have to buy the plate et al. they have 3 modes which are easily programmable. The spots in my dining room (8 of them) dim all the way to off with next to no flicker. I've set the minimum level a bit higher upstairs though.
  
• Any recommendations for a good quality two gang dimmer switch that will work with low power, i.e. only a couple of LED bulbs?
• see above. - but you can buy any design you want and just change the modules.
• I want the far two LEDs to work off one gang, and the other four over the bed area to work off the other gang. Will using only two bulbs off one gang cause any problems?
• yep problems for sure. If you want them to dim and don't want to have to use a dummy load, I'd consider putting them on a regular on/off switch instead.
• Is there a recommended distance from the wall that each downlight should be placed?
• I looked for an answer everywhere and could not find one. Survey the joist locations before you decide anyway as it's likely you wont be able to put them in an 'ideal' spot anyway. I have them as close as 35cm away from a wall - it was a choice in a way, because the only other option was over a meter away. I kind of like ot see the hotspots on the walls and you get a some bounced soft light from them too. The only guidance I could find for layout was one fitting per m2, I've not managed that yet!
• Any other issues you can foresee?

The last two lots of dimmable LED's I've done I've gone for a 'more is more' approach - more bulbs than would be perhaps recomended for the area - because they're dimmable so you can control the level, and more bulbs = smoother dimming. I don't regret spamming 8 bulbs in my relativly small dining area! That room looks pretty big, and 6 seems like too few to me, but I know others will say otherwise - I also know you will have issues dimming two LED's, regardless of what the dimmer modules specs say about minimum load.


I can easily drop another cable down to the current one gang one way switch from the loft, between the brick and the stud wall, then fit a two gang backplate / switch.

Many thanks for any thoughts.

 

[R B Customs]

probably never needed to post a picture of this, but just so you don't think I'm mad - here's the maskign tape to keep the body-filler in. it doesn't stick to it or leave any residue - amazing! this tape is from jonstones / toolstation.

and here's the last ones I did in my dining area:

excuse the laundry!
That's 8 spots in there laid out like this:




I've already posted this one but here it is again, this is a different room:

this was the layout:


here's the result:





oh, one more thing - those bulbs I linked to, I find the colour temperatures cooler than most. I have all 3 - cool, daylight and warm. I like the daylight a lot, but have put the warm white downstairs in my dining room and to be honest it's not really that warm, not as warm as the superior COBS i have in the kitchen, or ikea LED bulbs I have in the living room. My point is, if you think warm white will be too warm - it probably won't be, but the other 2 are brighter.

 

[Participant]

Fantastically helpful replies, thanks. Love the flooring in your dining area.

My plan with the pendant hole was to screw a small square of plasterboard into the ceiling over the hole from above in the loft, then plaster that hole. Your method is rather clever though.

Thanks for the recommendations. Sounds like I'm going to struggle dimming so few LEDs :/. Problem is I want as few as possible for aesthetic reasons. I'll never need huge amounts of light in there, just more than I currently have. Your suggestion about having the two in the dormer bit just being a simple on / off seems good. Will I be all right with a two gang dimmer but just never dimming the set of two, or would I need two separate one gang switches?

Regarding spacing and placement, from the highly scientific method of tapping the ceiling, I think I'll be OK, but will get up in the loft tomorrow and check.

Cheers again.

 

[Jez]

I dont really understand all that faff with tape and body filler, i have never had an issue with completely regular plaster. To fill holes just screw a bit of plasterboard over the back of the hole and fill to that, thats how plasterers do it so its good enough for me, its quick, easy, and always looks perfect even if you end up having to sand it. You will need to mash up that ceiling a bit unless you have access above? The majority of my downlights i installed with no access, so it was a case of "stitching" between the joists creating holes everywhere to feed the cables around.

Participant - you could always just go for halogen lamps in this case if the loadings will be too low? I'm still yet to LED my downlights, all halogen at my house, i think we have getting on for 75 of them (will be over 100 if we build our extension) so i really should get round to it

 

[Participant]

Participant - you could always just go for halogen lamps in this case if the loadings will be too low? I'm still yet to LED my downlights, all halogen at my house, i think we have getting on for 75 of them (will be over 100 if we build our extension) so i really should get round to it

Halogen for those two is a possibility, they just annoy me because I know they're using like ~100W vs. 10W for two LEDs . Still, I can always get an LED-rated dimmer and see if it works, then swap them for halogens if any problems.

100 LED bulbs...flip, you're almost into phone LED Hut and 'see what they can do for you' territory with that size of order!

 

[JohnnyG]

I can't recommend these lamps enough they're such a good colour & output - http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/LTSMD5WW.html
And these dimmer modules - http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/LTJP400MOD.html - can definitely handle 2x5w lamps.

Edit: Varilight Pro dimmers also have a min load of 4w so they'd be an option too.

 

[R B Customs]

I dont really understand all that faff with tape and body filler, i have never had an issue with completely regular plaster. To fill holes just screw a bit of plasterboard over the back of the hole and fill to that, thats how plasterers do it so its good enough for me, its quick, easy, and always looks perfect even if you end up having to sand it. You will need to mash up that ceiling a bit unless you have access above? The majority of my downlights i installed with no access, so it was a case of "stitching" between the joists creating holes everywhere to feed the cables around.

Participant - you could always just go for halogen lamps in this case if the loadings will be too low? I'm still yet to LED my downlights, all halogen at my house, i think we have getting on for 75 of them (will be over 100 if we build our extension) so i really should get round to it

As I said, it was a solution to the problem that may occur if, like mine, the pressure from above, combined wit gravity forces the filler out in what can only be compared to your ceiling 'curling one out' - the bodyfiller sets in minutes, and like you say - if you have no, or limited access from above then you need to do the repair from below.
the tape keeps it in, just like you would probably have to tape a patch of plasterboard in there if you chose that route.
As long as you scrape it flush there's no sanding to do and it will be ready for a thin layer of filler in minutes, and ready for paint in a sealing and painting in a couple of hours.

If you have that many halogen downlights in your house It's probably wise to look into LED alternatives if you are either looking to save energy, save the planet, or save yourself from changing bulbs all the time. The downside is that you will end up with a ton of old halogen bulbs with no further use! you could always just dig a hole in the ground and chuck them in there I guess

nothing dims like halogen though, especially the warmth that kicks in ans they output less light - the LED's I linked to are so close though! they just remain at a constant colour temperature.

before you take the plunge try and get a few samples and use a B22 or E27 to GU10 adapter to plug them in and wave them around to see what works, where.

Fantastically helpful replies, thanks. Love the flooring in your dining area.

My plan with the pendant hole was to screw a small square of plasterboard into the ceiling over the hole from above in the loft, then plaster that hole. Your method is rather clever though.

Thanks for the recommendations. Sounds like I'm going to struggle dimming so few LEDs :/. Problem is I want as few as possible for aesthetic reasons. I'll never need huge amounts of light in there, just more than I currently have. Your suggestion about having the two in the dormer bit just being a simple on / off seems good. Will I be all right with a two gang dimmer but just never dimming the set of two, or would I need two separate one gang switches?

Regarding spacing and placement, from the highly scientific method of tapping the ceiling, I think I'll be OK, but will get up in the loft tomorrow and check.

Cheers again.

no problem

I think you will run into issues with dimming only 2 bulbs, despite what the dimmer module's specs say. I can try and test some for you though as Ive got a few spare, but I don't have a spare V-pro module at the moment(I have 3 others though!) I *think* the V-pro didn't even turn on with only 2 bulbs, but I didn't try any different modes etc. you may have more luck with a more 'dumb' dimmer module kept at 100% and never dimmed.
I haven't looked into it at all but I keep seing modular face-plates; that may be a way to have a dimmer and an on/off switch on the same face plate.

re: filling the hole - if you can do that ten that's the best option! my access from above wasn't that easy where the ceiling rose used to be.


The floor is balterio traditional saphire, imperial teak. to think I nearly coughed up for over £30/m2 for it at a local 'facotry flooring' place
http://www.laminate-direct.co.uk/balterio-tradition-sapphire-imperial-teak.html

it's a really nice laminate, glad we went for this over engineered wood now.

 

[Jez]

As I said, it was a solution to the problem that may occur if, like mine, the pressure from above, combined wit gravity forces the filler out in what can only be compared to your ceiling 'curling one out' - the bodyfiller sets in minutes, and like you say - if you have no, or limited access from above then you need to do the repair from below.
the tape keeps it in, just like you would probably have to tape a patch of plasterboard in there if you chose that route.
As long as you scrape it flush there's no sanding to do and it will be ready for a thin layer of filler in minutes, and ready for paint in a sealing and painting in a couple of hours.

The speed of that sounds very good. Pressure wise though the plasterboard which you screw to the back of the hole should stop anything like that. I cant argue with that speed though, plaster takes about 4 years to dry

If you have that many halogen downlights in your house It's probably wise to look into LED alternatives if you are either looking to save energy, save the planet, or save yourself from changing bulbs all the time. The downside is that you will end up with a ton of old halogen bulbs with no further use! you could always just dig a hole in the ground and chuck them in there I guess

nothing dims like halogen though, especially the warmth that kicks in ans they output less light - the LED's I linked to are so close though! they just remain at a constant colour temperature.

before you take the plunge try and get a few samples and use a B22 or E27 to GU10 adapter to plug them in and wave them around to see what works, where.

The dimming is my main issue to be honest, throughout my house i have digital (touch sensitive) multiway dimming, one press fades the lights up, prolonged for up and down etc. These switches require dimmable bulbs obviously as they fade up and down by default, i also would never really wish to run them at full power, but do want full power available for if i want the room very bright for whatever reason.

The changing of bulbs is the main reason i need to change them all out though, go through a pack of 5 every month i would say, its highly frustrating.

What do you mean about the adapter by the way, surely i would buy direct GU10/MR16 fitting LED's?

 

[the_r_sole]

personally, wouldn't go for down lighters in a bedroom

 

[Jez]

personally, wouldn't go for down lighters in a bedroom

Why?

 

[Ragnahex]

i went for downlighters in the bedroom and it is the best thing i have done in ages! Total control over entire room lighting and they fit the room perfectly... Don't think i have ever had them on full though i would probably be blinded. (this was after having them in the kitchen and bathrooms)

 

[Jez]

i went for downlighters in the bedroom and it is the best thing i have done in ages! Total control over entire room lighting and they fit the room perfectly... Don't think i have ever had them on full though i would probably be blinded. (this was after having them in the kitchen and bathrooms)

Ditto, totally even light over the whole room, and a very nice light at that. (I speak only from experience with nice warm halogens though). I have installed them through our master suite and wouldnt consider any other type of lighting in there.

 

[Ragnahex]

AND they don't get dusty! unlike my chandeliers which are a nightmare

 

[R B Customs]

The speed of that sounds very good. Pressure wise though the plasterboard which you screw to the back of the hole should stop anything like that. I cant argue with that speed though, plaster takes about 4 years to dry

The dimming is my main issue to be honest, throughout my house i have digital (touch sensitive) multiway dimming, one press fades the lights up, prolonged for up and down etc. These switches require dimmable bulbs obviously as they fade up and down by default, i also would never really wish to run them at full power, but do want full power available for if i want the room very bright for whatever reason.

The changing of bulbs is the main reason i need to change them all out though, go through a pack of 5 every month i would say, its highly frustrating.

What do you mean about the adapter by the way, surely i would buy direct GU10/MR16 fitting LED's?

re: bulb adapter, if you see that pic with my dining area in it, theres a floor lamp. that's got an e27 thread on the top with a GU10 adapter in it. there's also a little white clamp-light fitting attatched to the pole of the floor lamp. it's just for testing bulbs with to save getting up there on steps to remove all the bulbs to leave one to test with.

by test I mean check that the colour temperature is not too warm or too cool. check that everything looks natural under the light etc. different LED gu10's have different characteristics and it's a total nightmare! the closest I have found to halogen is 'superior cob' bulbs from light rabbit. they're very natural, great warm white with natural colour rendering - but they're nearly useless for dimming, which is very unfortunate as I paid a premium for them!

I have 7 or 8 different GU10's to hand at the moment! so it's good to weed out the rubbish ones from the best ones. I've settled on those 4.5watt SMD's from LED hut though. they're not the best looking but they perform very well.

 

[the_r_sole]

Why?

It's the one room you will likely be facing the ceiling, downlights give direct, focused light which is more suited to task lighting, in a bedroom you generally want diffused light, so pendant fittings, wall lights lamps etc. We normally install a 5amp switched circuit so you can have several lamps all controlled from a single (or double) wall switch.
I can see others disagree but having lived with both I will never spec downlights in a bedroom again!

 

[Participant]

if you have no, or limited access from above then you need to do the repair from below.

Yep, but there's a way to do it from below by cutting a hole in a piece of plasterboard slightly bigger than the hole you're patching, then snapping it in half without breaking the paper. Then you stuff it through the hole, unfold, and screw / plaster from below.

It's the one room you will likely be facing the ceiling, downlights give direct, focused light which is more suited to task lighting, in a bedroom you generally want diffused light, so pendant fittings, wall lights lamps etc. We normally install a 5amp switched circuit so you can have several lamps all controlled from a single (or double) wall switch.
I can see others disagree but having lived with both I will never spec downlights in a bedroom again!

You raise good points here and I agree that bedroom light should be diffused rather than focused. However a) modern downlights diffuse fairly well and b) the look is much cleaner imo. They're also easier and cheaper to install than multiple pendants or wall lights.

 

[JohnnyG]

Just had a thought about your min load query, these may help - http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/DNCAPLOAD.html

 

[Participant]

Cheers for that. I've decided to put four bulbs on each gang, to overcome the low load problem caused by having only two LED bulbs on one of the gangs. Seems that the Varilight V-Pro (sold by Screwfix as 'trailing edge') are the ones to go for, as recommended above.

Just got to figure out the wiring now.

Plan is to chip into the wiring using a junction box after the ceiling rose like so:



No clangers in there are there?

 

[boxman2000]

It's the one room you will likely be facing the ceiling, downlights give direct, focused light which is more suited to task lighting, in a bedroom you generally want diffused light, so pendant fittings, wall lights lamps etc. We normally install a 5amp switched circuit so you can have several lamps all controlled from a single (or double) wall switch.
I can see others disagree but having lived with both I will never spec downlights in a bedroom again!

Agree with this, I stayed at in laws a while back while house was having some work done and they have halogens on dimmers in the guest room and I really didn't like them.

We were going to go for halogens as we have a ceiling fan with tri-bulb cluster with low voltage bulbs that takes forever to get some sort of light but when we do tackle the room we will be going for wall lights.