Hillsborough inquest verdict.

[BaZ87]

This all day.

I AM a Sheffielder and I will NOT stand by whilst my city is tarnished by this sham of a verdict.

YES - I admit the police got it wrong on the day. Decisions were made that ultimately proved tragic.

YES - I fully acknowledge that the police compounded that decision by trying to lie their way out of it.

Liverpool fans had nothing to do with it - Pull the other one. Anyone who believes that the fans did not play a part in causing the disaster (and by fans I am not blaming the 96 victims) needs to serious check their grip on reality.

1. Fans (with tickets) arrived late & many were intoxicated

2. The (incorrect) decision to open the gates to herd them in was made

3. Fans with or without tickets surged into the grounds. Through the gates AND jumping turnstiles (or are we not accepting the video evidence of this?)

4. Too many people, too little space, the inevitable happened.

BLAME ON BOTH SIDES!

Why should we blame both sides? What evidence have we to blame supporters? The smear campaign that the police used and spread via a certain ****rag or all the independent reports and legal hearings that continue to clear supporters?

You do realise that supporters arrived late due to traffic on the M62? You do realise that there was a build up of supporters all rushing to get into the ground as a result of police not allowing the kick-off to be delayed?

This idea of ticketless fans or too many fans is complete and utter *******s. I honestly cannot believe how people can still spout this crap.

As part of the Taylor report in 1990, Sheffield Wednesday physically counted the number of supporters that entered or attempted to enter the Leppings Lane. The figure they came up with was 9,734, the capacity of the stand? 10,100! As I've said already, this stuff isn't new, this was released 26 years ago yet peoples ideas about Hillsborough are still influenced more by the lies of the police and the Sun :/

So if you believe there was too many supporters then you should look at your own club for having such a high capacity on that stand. And also ask why they didn't have a valid safety certificate or why no measures were taken following a similar crush a few years earlier - thankfully that day there wasn't an incompetent **** of a policeman running the show and he opened the front gates of the pens to allow supporters onto the pitch or else the Hillsborough disaster would have happened much sooner.

 

[glenimp617]

It is the polices fault, no question

People are stupid, honestly they are. They need controlling, and it was the job of the police to control them. They failed, the judge agreed, job done.

Never EVER forget how stupid the general public are. NEVER!

 

[KiNgPiN83]

I think that may be slightly unfair as it was probably the people already in there at the front of the stand that probably beared most of the brunt of what happened behind them...

 

[Diddums]

Nevermind. Not worth it.

 

[BaZ87]

Apparently me having an opinion which is different to that of a don is worthy of an infraction and my opinion being deleted.

I'll stay out of here since this is clearly a place where only one opinion is tolerated.

Having an opinion is fine. When you express your completely ignorant opnion in a highly offensive way it is no longer fine

 

[Diddums]

I've edited my post. I'll stay out as this is clearly a sensitive subject to some

 

[Freakbro]

I've edited my post. I'll stay out as this is clearly a sensitive subject to some

No **** Sherlock, have you only just realised that

 

[Diddums]

Yes. I'm a bit dim

 

[Washout]

I've been in a crush situation before at a massively oversold club and frankly it was terrifying. Literally couldn't do a thing other than move with the crowd. Scariest moment was when it started tilting forward while feet couldn't move. Not a situation I'd ever want to be in again.
Despite that you still had people joining in from the back adding to the domino effect. Unbelievably with the crush for the exits you even had people trying to get in against the flow! People are stupid.

A crush can happen anywhere you have a bottleneck and more people joining it than coming out just like an traffic jam. Except unlike a car people try to squeeze into the gaps, people just in front have to shuffle a couple millimetres and so on where that forward pressure quickly builds up so the unfortunates at the front get crushed. I think the report is saying there's no evidence that the extra people (ticketless) in there caused the crush and it may have happened anyway?

Personally in the bigger picture I'm not so sure it wasn't a factor. Even if all the people caught up in the actual crush itself had tickets... Anyone there that shouldn't have been unnecessarily added to the crowd. The huge surge forward when the main gates outside were opened meaning anyone could pretty much get in would have meant a rush for folk to get in and make sure they got their seat and didn't miss the game.

Anyway, horrible business all round and shame on any senior police who tried to cover themselves than allow the truth to come out.

RIP to the victims. Thankfully lessons were learned and stadiums are far safer these days.

 

[Scam]

It is the polices fault, no question

It's this attitude that needs correcting. It wasn't the police's fault. It was a combination of many mistakes which led to a terrible tragedy. The police mis-managing it was one of many. What about the FA putting the game on at that particular stadium? What about the terrible stadium design? What about the ambulance service? What about the fans stampeding through an exit gate? Why was nothing done by the FA after recent close calls and others like Heysel. And that's just off the top of my head with no real research.

The more that Liverpudlians and supporters of the JFT96 keep spouting comments like "it was all the police's fault" the more they are going to alienate themselves from the general public who are only following the story with mild interest.

Disclaimer (everyone needs one in this thread ): No-one is denying the police cover-up was disgusting and those responsible should be punished.

EDIT: And by the way, how can there possibly not be too many people in the stand? You can see by the pictures there was nowhere to move and it was totally overcrowded. Honest question, I don't understand how that could be normal if people are dying at the front?

 

[ColdAsIce]

EDIT: And by the way, how can there possibly not be too many people in the stand? You can see by the pictures there was nowhere to move and it was totally overcrowded. Honest question, I don't understand how that could be normal if people are dying at the front?

There was space in the side pens I believe but that idiot of a Police commander opened the central gate which just added extra people into an area that was already at capacity.

 

[drs101]

It's this attitude that needs correcting. It wasn't the police's fault. It was a combination of many mistakes which led to a terrible tragedy. The police mis-managing it was one of many. What about the FA putting the game on at that particular stadium? What about the terrible stadium design? What about the ambulance service? What about the fans stampeding through an exit gate? Why was nothing done by the FA after recent close calls and others like Heysel. And that's just off the top of my head with no real research.

The more that Liverpudlians and supporters of the JFT96 keep spouting comments like "it was all the police's fault" the more they are going to alienate themselves from the general public who are only following the story with mild interest.

Disclaimer (everyone needs one in this thread ): No-one is denying the police cover-up was disgusting and those responsible should be punished.

EDIT: And by the way, how can there possibly not be too many people in the stand? You can see by the pictures there was nowhere to move and it was totally overcrowded. Honest question, I don't understand how that could be normal if people are dying at the front?

On the day the police were responsible for crowd safety, as I and many have pointed out multiple times the attitude towards all football fans at the time was that they were animals, the response to the crowd crush would have been tainted by this.

And then we have the lies and cover-up led by the police in command and the government, so more than anyone the police / government / establishment are to blame.

 

[cheesyboy]

EDIT: And by the way, how can there possibly not be too many people in the stand? You can see by the pictures there was nowhere to move and it was totally overcrowded. Honest question, I don't understand how that could be normal if people are dying at the front?

The police herded too many people into the two pens behind the goal. Those pens had a capacity of about 2,000, out of a total capacity for the whole Leppings Lane stand of about 10,000.

That's why the arguments about ticketless fans, or bad behaving fans is redundant. The police failed to correctly allocate the mass of people and just gave in and opened the outer gates, without closing down access to the two overcrowded pens.

 

[Tefal]

Swiss cheese model of disasters/accidents is very releveant in thie case.


There are so many places where just closing onw hole/fixing one problem could have avoided it.


And thats problems caused by every party involved.

 

[Tefal]

EDIT: And by the way, how can there possibly not be too many people in the stand? You can see by the pictures there was nowhere to move and it was totally overcrowded. Honest question, I don't understand how that could be normal if people are dying at the front?

Iirc the companies capacity rating of the stand was wildly out.

 

[cheesyboy]

Iirc the companies capacity rating of the stand was wildly out.

HSE estimates put the numbers in the two central pens at over 3,000, against the official capacity of 2,000, against the estimated 'safe' capacity of about 1,700.

 

[Scam]

I think a good point to make also, is probably how much the general public see football games as a total police resource hog. I know every time I get close to a game (in the same town by accident, or near the stadium/train station) I'm pretty angry about the sheer amount of resources that are used to protect a bunch of drunken loons from themselves (holy exaggeration batman, please take with a pinch of salt!). Seriously though. Football clubs should be footing the bill for their own security at stadiums and public areas, rather than relying on a public police force and then vilifying it at every given opportunity. If clubs can afford to pay their players £350k/week then they can afford to police their own damn games. There should also be far more work done by the FA, FIFA etc at clamping down on bad behaviour. As said above, you see none of this at other sporting events. Why is that?

 

[cheesyboy]

I think a good point to make also, is probably how much the general public see football games as a total police resource hog. I know every time I get close to a game (in the same town by accident, or near the stadium/train station) I'm pretty angry about the sheer amount of resources that are used to protect a bunch of drunken loons from themselves (holy exaggeration batman, please take with a pinch of salt!). Seriously though. Football clubs should be footing the bill for their own security at stadiums and public areas, rather than relying on a public police force and then vilifying it at every given opportunity. If clubs can afford to pay their players £350k/week then they can afford to police their own damn games. There should also be far more work done by the FA, FIFA etc at clamping down on bad behaviour. As said above, you see none of this at other sporting events. Why is that?

In the context of Hillsborough, that doesn't seem a very good point to make at all. What actually is your point, in fact?

 

[BaZ87]

Not only isn't it a good point but football clubs do pay for the policing

 

[Tefal]

I think a good point to make also, is probably how much the general public see football games as a total police resource hog. I know every time I get close to a game (in the same town by accident, or near the stadium/train station) I'm pretty angry about the sheer amount of resources that are used to protect a bunch of drunken loons from themselves (holy exaggeration batman, please take with a pinch of salt!). Seriously though. Football clubs should be footing the bill for their own security at stadiums and public areas, rather than relying on a public police force and then vilifying it at every given opportunity. If clubs can afford to pay their players £350k/week then they can afford to police their own damn games. There should also be far more work done by the FA, FIFA etc at clamping down on bad behaviour. As said above, you see none of this at other sporting events. Why is that?

Do clubs not have to pay?

If you want to do a parade etc you have to pay for the polixe cover