'Russia is seriously running out of cash'

[Dis86]

Would they be the same Russian soldiers the Kremlin was adamant were no where near the area and most certainly not being sent into the Ukraine in Russian army vehicles at the time?

Lol. They don't have an answer for that one.

They argued til blue in the face they weren't Russian. Then even Russia eventually came out and went...Yeah ok, they were ours.

 

[Zethor]

He actually said theyre both bad not just as bad.

.id say that theyre both bad is a very accurate description of thier governments.

Try taking your meds they might help you to read whats writen not what you want to be writen

No it's not accurate, it's a false equivalence. What you two are doing fits perfectly into the definition of this particular fallacy.

The following statements are examples of false equivalence:

"They're both soft, cuddly pets. There's no difference between a cat and a dog."
"We all bleed red. We're all no different from each other."
"Social democracy inevitably leads to the formation of a totalitarian state."

False equivalence is occasionally claimed in politics, where one political party will accuse their opponents of having performed equally wrong actions.
Commentators may also accuse journalists of false equivalence in their reporting of political controversies if the stories are perceived to assign equal blame to multiple parties.

Though we disagree I want to say I appreciate that you, unlike a couple of other posters, understand what I am saying and engage with that. Yes, I am not saying Russia is without flaw, I am saying that the USA is also with flaw. And the reason for that is because this conversation has spiralled into a wider discussion of geopolitics with people taking sides in a USA vs. Russia conversation. We have had debate about where troops are positioned, which countries USA and Russia are allied with or support, etc. And some are attempting to justify US foreign policy by casting Russia as a Bad Guy. Aside from being hopelessly naïve as an approach to modern politics, it is a distraction. One cannot respond to criticism of NATO military policy by saying LGBT people don't have sufficient rights in Russia or are discriminated against.

Well, of course you can but it's trying to create a narrative of Good Guy / Bad Guy which is put about by people for purposes of justifying behaviour. That's the issue. I'm arguing the point not because Russia is a Gay Utopia and Moscow the San Francisco of the East. I'm arguing it because it is partisan. The USA has a tonne of prejudice against gay people. It has better legal protections and so is ahead of Russia in its protection of minorities which is good, but it also supports a number of very vicious regimes including having fostered an organization that is currently throwing gay people off rooftops. And violent homophobia is one atrocity amongst many.

If I were in Russia having a conversation about China, I might well be pointing out double-standards in the views of Russian posters. Why? Because people don't view things objectively. One points out that Russia isn't the aggressor and that the USA and NATO are building up massive forces around Russia, imposing sanctions of very dubious legality on Russia, et al., and people start trying to create a Good Guy / Bad Guy narrative.

It's the language of chickens discussing their favourite farmer. And to do so, they're exaggerating (in many cases) and selectively discussing the other farmer whilst ditching the context of any comparison to their own. If one is going to criticize one political power in a discussion of which country is right or wrong in an action, then the criticism has to be a relative one, by the nature of the purpose of the criticism. (I add this last to forestall Tefal responding that a flaw isn't made better by someone else sharing it. It isn't if the purpose is to discuss how we can fix that flaw, but if the context is trying to show one country as a villain, then it's a valid counter-argument.)

That's where I'm coming from.

The liberal democracy, in which the US is the most influential entity, is the Good Guy. Not the Perfect Guy of course but considering the often horrible world are part of and in comparison with the rest of it, it is pretty damn good. This isn't a subjective opinion, it's a measurable fact so your inane ramblings on the subject are completely fallacious.

 

[Tefal]

Russian troops were there to prevent atrocities being carried out eg: Like what Ukrainian soldiers did in Donbass.

Tens of thousands I would err caution on, a few thousand seems plausible.

How does self propelled artillary batteries prevent atfrodit9ies?

Ans if they where there to prevent atrocities why werent they all out with thier nice blue UN helmets on instead of breaching quite a few regs by having no insignia?

 

[Tefal]

No it's not accurate, it's a false equivalence. What you two are doing fits perfectly into the definition of this particular fallacy.

The following statements are examples of false equivalence:

"They're both soft, cuddly pets. There's no difference between a cat and a dog."
"We all bleed red. We're all no different from each other."
"Social democracy inevitably leads to the formation of a totalitarian state."

False equivalence is occasionally claimed in politics, where one political party will accuse their opponents of having performed equally wrong actions.
Commentators may also accuse journalists of false equivalence in their reporting of political controversies if the stories are perceived to assign equal blame to multiple parties.




The liberal democracy, in which the US is the most influential entity, is the Good Guy. Not the Perfect Guy of course but considering the often horrible world are part of and in comparison with the rest of it, it is pretty damn good. This isn't a subjective opinion, it's a measurable fact so your inane ramblings on the subject are completely fallacious.

Its not sn equivalence at all.


Its the same as saying.

Hitler is bad.

Rupert murdoch is bad.


Both are bad.

They are not however as bad as each other.

See we have scales not black and white in the real world so as much as your desperate to twist pwoples words thats not how debate works

 

[RoboCod]

Again, Tefal is on the same wavelength: I never said they're no different zethor, that's your own misinterpretation of the discussion. Again, your own agenda skewing what you read. I never said they're no different. I said they're both bad. Stop over analysing/trying to be too smart/trying to argue a straw man point.

 

[Tefal]

Again, Tefal is on the same wavelength: I never said they're no different zethor, that's your own misinterpretation of the discussion. Again, your own agenda skewing what you read. I never said they're no different. I said they're both bad. Stop over analysing/trying to be too smart/trying to argue a straw man point.

he does this a lot and its annoying.

poster: reasonable point made
zethor: omg but <completely unreasonable augment no one made> cant you see how terrible that is!!
Poster: Wut!? i never said that


what's funny is he uses a logical fallacy to attack someone for using a logical fallacy when they never actually did.


we need dolph to get back on his fallacy patrol duties tbh.

What you two are doing fits perfectly into the definition

perfect and fit dont mean what you think they mean.

if you notice all your examples make 100% fixed links (no difference, no different, inevitably) when no one made such a fixed link.


they're both bad does not equal they're both equally bad, or theres no difference.

i think tea tastes bad, i think **** tastes bad, i do not think there is no difference between the taste of tea and ****.

 

[Dis86]

Interesting article on the bbc this morning about Russia and their continuing attempts to rewrite history.
I've come across a few examples before in regards to actions of Russian soldiers during ww2 being exaggerated but to prosecute people who point that out...tut tut.

 

[RaohNS]

Link?

 

[Tefal]

Link?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37595972

fired the head of the national archives for pointing out its not true lol

 

[Washout]

Yeah, I mean the way things in here (as it seems to be a Russia v US thing) go it'll be quickly pointed Hollywood outputs an awful lot of nonsense too. Which is absolutely true.
However, you won't see serious historians fired for pointing out it's nonsense and being called 'scum' by government officials. Or more scarily syllabus changed intentionally to an inaccurate recount of events.

 

[scorza]

Yeah, I mean the way things in here (as it seems to be a Russia v US thing) go it'll be quickly pointed Hollywood outputs an awful lot of nonsense too. Which is absolutely true.
However, you won't see serious historians fired for pointing out it's nonsense and being called 'scum' by government officials. Or more scarily syllabus changed intentionally to an inaccurate recount of events.

Hollywood also releases plenty of stuff where some element of the US government is the bad guy.

 

[Werewolf]

Interesting article on the bbc this morning about Russia and their continuing attempts to rewrite history.
I've come across a few examples before in regards to actions of Russian soldiers during ww2 being exaggerated but to prosecute people who point that out...tut tut.

Not just history that far back.

There are publishing house(s?) (with no affiliation to the Kremlin or Putin's buddies, honest) that are putting out books purporting to either be written by or having what are meant to be quotes from the likes or American politician.
Except that they're not, they're full of faked quotes to support the idea that everyone who speaks out against Putin hates Russia and that the Americans are commuting atrocities on a regular basis.

 

[Tefal]

Hollywood also releases plenty of stuff where some element of the US government is the bad guy.

I'd say over half the time if the us government is in a film theyre the bad guy lol

 

[AdladUK]

I find it kinda sad that people would still believe anything CNN (Clinton News Network) says. They lost their credibility as a reputable balanced source long ago

 

[AdladUK]

In fact all the major news organizations on both sides are a joke. That includes CNN, Fox News, BBC and RT.

They're all propoganda machines pushing an agenda. CNN takes the cake though

 

[Tefal]

so you're saying hes still head of th archives and wasnt fire?

 

[Zethor]

Its not sn equivalence at all.


Its the same as saying.

Hitler is bad.

Rupert murdoch is bad.


Both are bad.

They are not however as bad as each other.

See we have scales not black and white in the real world so as much as your desperate to twist pwoples words thats not how debate works

Again, Tefal is on the same wavelength: I never said they're no different zethor, that's your own misinterpretation of the discussion. Again, your own agenda skewing what you read. I never said they're no different. I said they're both bad. Stop over analysing/trying to be too smart/trying to argue a straw man point.

he does this a lot and its annoying.

poster: reasonable point made
zethor: omg but <completely unreasonable augment no one made> cant you see how terrible that is!!
Poster: Wut!? i never said that


what's funny is he uses a logical fallacy to attack someone for using a logical fallacy when they never actually did.


we need dolph to get back on his fallacy patrol duties tbh.




perfect and fit dont mean what you think they mean.

if you notice all your examples make 100% fixed links (no difference, no different, inevitably) when no one made such a fixed link.


they're both bad does not equal they're both equally bad, or theres no difference.

i think tea tastes bad, i think **** tastes bad, i do not think there is no difference between the taste of tea and ****.

My initial reply wasn't directed at RoboCod, it was directed at h4rm0ny who is clearly making false equivalences all over the thread:

Russia vs. USA is like two farmers fighting over their chickens and watching the chickens root for the farmer that raised them.

Having experienced both USA and Russia, I can only make an informed comment between those two; and I would pick Russia

No? The discussion seems to have become one of which country of the USA or Russia has the greatest moral authority.

 

[RoboCod]

My initial reply wasn't directed at RoboCod, it was directed at h4rm0ny who is clearly making false equivalences all over the thread:

Advise you click quote whenever you reply to anyone here then to avoid confusion. Your post was made several posts after harmony posted and immediately after a few of mine.

 

[Tefal]

My initial reply wasn't directed at RoboCod, it was directed at h4rm0ny who is clearly making false equivalences all over the thread:

Oh right so when you quoted me and robocod said "what you twonare doing" you where actually talking about h4rm0ny..


You can see why there may have been some confusion...