Russian SU-24 - Shot Down by Turkey

RaohNS · 3 Dec 2015 at 15:06

Dis86 said:
Raoh. I suppose the thousands of kurds he killed just gassed themselves then?

I'm not saying he wasn't a bad guy but for the bite; ahhh yes the Kurds he gassed using French aircraft, German circuitry, British steel casings and munitions and chemical gas produced under license from the US. The only thing in the planes Iraqi were the pilots... Who had to be trained by the French...

slant drilling was his claimed reason yes, but the bigger issue for him really was the huge debt after the Iran/Iraq war which he wanted Kuwait and Saudi to forgive

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Kuwait

Wiki... Really??? Oh well the al Sabahs agreed to forgive $17bn in a debt that was likely a gift... The political compass of Kuwait is what to Iran? Plus thanks to Saudi the al Sabahs invested upwards of $50bn in US companies... Ever likely the US jumped head first in to help.... Follow the money and you have the real truth.

A bit like the argument: He burned the oil wells to take wealth away from the people in Kuwait... Its laughable when the truth emerges that Saddam had his RG burn the derricks that were drilling into his oilfield. Remember the king of Jordan even admitted al Saud and the al Sabahs agreed to pay him but got assurances from the US they didn't have to honour their agreement.

RaohNS · 3 Dec 2015 at 15:12

To KotD's

Also true but with the wealth of evidence... Surely being found guilty of 0.01% of his alleged victims is well.. Laughable? What about the 1million dead civilians since Operation Iraqi Liberation went off?

He was not worth one drop of our soldiers blood and we could argue that some posters here are agreeing with the 45minute ever present danger dossier here. We too supported Saddam in the 80's and according to some places I've read, Halabja was not even reported by the western media until long after it has been reported in Iran. He was our dictator until $ said more $$ could be gained by disposing of him

scorza · 18 Dec 2015 at 10:39

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35130953

Oh what a darned nuisance - the black box from the Su24 that was shot down by Turkey is damaged, so they won't be able to determine its location from it.

gettothechopper · 18 Dec 2015 at 11:57

gosh darn, that is inconvenient :rolleyes:

Trig · 18 Dec 2015 at 12:02

Yeah, almost suspicious eh...

The bottom line is, both Turkey and Russia are on operations against ISIS/ISIL/Daesh so airspace infractions should be escorted at best, certainly not shot down...
There is more to this than either side are letting on...

Dis86 · 18 Dec 2015 at 12:09

gettothechopper said:
gosh darn, that is inconvenient

Who'd have thought it eh?

CrispyOtter · 18 Dec 2015 at 12:14

Russian cover up shocker!

aardvark · 18 Dec 2015 at 14:42

to be fair its not surprising - any black box close to a missile hit wouldn't stand a chance - they aren't indestructible.

StriderX · 18 Dec 2015 at 14:54

Trig said:
Yeah, almost suspicious eh...

The bottom line is, both Turkey and Russia are on operations against ISIS/ISIL/Daesh so airspace infractions should be escorted at best, certainly not shot down...
There is more to this than either side are letting on...

They hate each other from the empire days, so its not a surpirse at all that either party likes the situation.

Dis86 · 18 Dec 2015 at 15:05

aardvark said:
to be fair its not surprising - any black box close to a missile hit wouldn't stand a chance - they aren't indestructible.

It wasn't close to the hit. My understanding is its located in the middle of the aircraft, the missile blew at the rear. If you watch the footage the plane is largely intact until it crashes

dowie · 18 Dec 2015 at 15:09

Trig said:
The bottom line is, both Turkey and Russia are on operations against ISIS/ISIL/Daesh so airspace infractions should be escorted at best, certainly not shot down...
There is more to this than either side are letting on...

erm Russia aren't just on operations against ISIS, they're conducting strikes against other rebel groups too including Turkmen groups backed by Turkey - their interests are completely opposed in that instance

Trig · 18 Dec 2015 at 15:19

StriderX said:
They hate each other from the empire days, so its not a surpirse at all that either party likes the situation.

Aye, problem is Russia has been labelled as the bad guy lately with that Crimean stuff and Turkey as part of NATO has some nice Big Brothers it can call on if the **** hits the fan so it wouldn't surprise me at all if they did shoot the Russian jet down knowing that theres nothing from a military POV that Russia could do given Turkeys "friends" in the West...

Trig · 18 Dec 2015 at 15:21

dowie said:
erm Russia aren't just on operations against ISIS, they're conducting strikes against other rebel groups too including Turkmen groups backed by Turkey - their interests are completely opposed in that instance

Yes I know, and I'm sure that's rather convenient from Russia's POV, but given the close proximity of what's going on they should be working out a group plan rather than going at it ad-hoc and then risking incidents like the jet being shot down...

dowie · 18 Dec 2015 at 15:27

Trig said:
Yes I know, and I'm sure that's rather convenient from Russia's POV, but given the close proximity of what's going on they should be working out a group plan rather than going at it ad-hoc and then risking incidents like the jet being shot down...

work out a plan to make it easier for Russia attack Turkmen people Turkey is actively helping? Why would they want to do that, they're pretty annoyed by it so not surprising they're taking a hard line and warning them to keep out of their airspace. Not that I think downing a Russian plane is a good idea(I think it was unnecessary and stupid) but I can see why turkey would want to.

RoboCod · 18 Dec 2015 at 16:12

StriderX said:
They hate each other from the empire days, so its not a surpirse at all that either party likes the situation.

Explain this more. When were the empire days? How do people alive today actually hate someone else based on that? Is this as unfounded as the Scottish hate for English? Oh the evil empire! Darn them

Trig · 18 Dec 2015 at 16:59

dowie said:
Not that I think downing a Russian plane is a good idea(I think it was unnecessary and stupid) but I can see why turkey would want to.

I suspect that part of it, from the Turkish POV is they are part of NATO and Russia aren't so they play that as an advantage..

I suspect if it were RAF Tornado's flying into Turkish airspace the game wouldn't play out the same way...

Nutella33 · 18 Dec 2015 at 18:40

Trig said:
I suspect that part of it, from the Turkish POV is they are part of NATO and Russia aren't so they play that as an advantage..

I suspect if it were RAF Tornado's flying into Turkish airspace the game wouldn't play out the same way...

But mainly due to the fact the RAF has working transponders and radios and are reasonably competent and not using a countries airspace to bomb its allies.

As an aside, Russia playing an interesting threat game

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-12-17/new-russian-air-defenses-in-syria-keep-u-s-grounded