Save the NHS!

Permabanned
Joined
5 Jun 2010
Posts
15,459
Does this new contract for the doctors make provisions to provide the the additional support services they would need?

if the doctors are working more, will there be sufficient nurses to care for the patients?

Will services such as radiology and phlebotomy be increased in order to support the doctors?

For me, this is a cost cutting exercise. When you spread something to thin, gaps appear.
 
Associate
Joined
11 Dec 2002
Posts
845
Location
Newcastle
More likely is that they just don't care at the moment as it is 4 years until the next election.

I have grave concerns about what shape the NHS will be in by then, if in fact it hasn't all but fallen apart beyond name by then. I think recruitment and retention problems will be crazy by then. There was always a good chunk of people who went abroad and delayed starting specialist training when I was a junior, however they all went with the intention of returning. I now speak to juniors who go and have no intention of returning very early on in careers and also very worryingly an increased amount who plan to complete training and go.

It really is frightening the general direction things are going in with the government compounding the issue by stoking unrealistic expectations from the public and attacking and refusing to engage with the workforce. I don't think they look like they will back down which makes me think they see the whole fight as win win. They either get a weak compliant workforce who will just do it regardless of what they impose, who they an control absolutely or they are building their case against the people they will blame when the house of cards falls down. There aren't enough of the cardigan wearing 'it's a privilege to look after people' types in the younger generation of doctors, as they have grown up in a much more dog eat dog society and they reflect that now. They are, and will continue to vote with their feet. I feel it is a terrible, terrible shame having worked in the NHS all my working life to see the way it is going, but I do strongly back the juniors stance and I really feel this will be a watershed moment. Had you asked me would I strike when I was a junior I would have absolutely stated I never would and that I couldn't comprehend anything that would bring me to do so in the future. A lot has changed since then
 
Soldato
Joined
12 Sep 2005
Posts
6,493
Location
Grundisburgh
Does this new contract for the doctors make provisions to provide the the additional support services they would need?

if the doctors are working more, will there be sufficient nurses to care for the patients?

Will services such as radiology and phlebotomy be increased in order to support the doctors?

For me, this is a cost cutting exercise. When you spread something to thin, gaps appear.

Nurses already work 7 days, patients are not sent home on Friday (mostly). Other departments covering things you mentioned will be 'approached' by Jeremy Hunt next to ensure services are 7 days a week. Consultants for example who really won't like a 7 day contract.

So the aim is to get a 7 day NHS - more than it does at the moment - with the same or even less staff and for less money.

Cut the service to a minimum/breaking point then expand it's functionality then I suspect sell it off as the government can't make it work.

I have to think myself lucky that I've had 60 years of reasonable NHS, I feel for my children and my really old age.

Andi.
 
Man of Honour
Joined
24 Sep 2005
Posts
35,503
I have a question on this... Possibly already answered.

If doctors are already working 'mega hours', say to 8pm a day, and they get bonus time from, say, 6pm.... And the proposed chance is to get bonus time from 8pm.... then to me it seems the whole issue IS about pay.

Or is that not what it's about? I mean, it's not wrong to complain about reductions in pay, but that's not the same as complaining about patient safety.

Educate me, OCUK!
 
Associate
Joined
11 Dec 2002
Posts
845
Location
Newcastle
Does this new contract for the doctors make provisions to provide the the additional support services they would need?

if the doctors are working more, will there be sufficient nurses to care for the patients?

Will services such as radiology and phlebotomy be increased in order to support the doctors?

For me, this is a cost cutting exercise. When you spread something to thin, gaps appear.

Their contracts will be negotiated/imposed in the next couple of years to make it cheap enough for that to be the case also I expect
 
Soldato
Joined
13 Mar 2006
Posts
6,712
People are bashing Hunt, but in my mind he's standing up for people who use services in the NHS.

Yes, true. It would be great to pay doctors as little as you can (they can't work for another employer after all!) and have them forced to work hours unpaid each day with no recourse. Great deal for the taxpayer, but don't get surprised when doctors react as any one would when faced with a 20-30% paycut would (the 11% figure only applies to some of the hours doctors usually work to bring the more antisocial proposed contract back to the level of the current one, and this 11% deal only stands for 3 years then stops...).

The underlying problem is a lack of doctors for the population. The UK has a very low number of doctors and pays a small % of GDP on the NHS, and has an ageing unhealthy population. Stretching out the same doctors onto more antisocial rotas with greater hours (same on paper but junior doctors have this habit of staying to ensure the work is done each day and sick people don't come to harm!) with no time to see friends and family, for the purpose of elective operations and clinics at the weekend is not going to solve the problems within the NHS. it will only make them worse and make things more unsafe (when there aren't enough doctors patients getting sick don't get seen on time and mistakes are made).

The irony is that junior doctors are not the difficult part of getting 7 day 'normal' healthcare to work. They already work many weekends and evenings/nights, and stretching them to provide non-emergency work at the weekends for convenience when we're told there's a 30 billion pound black hole seems a little like misplaced priorities. The Tories made this pledge before the election for 7 day full NHS with no plans for how to fund it.

Good luck getting the receptionists and porters and radiographers, HCAs and nurses and social workers to work extra hours at the weekend for free Mr Hunt!

Over the last 10 years junior doctors have lost free accommodation, recurrent pay freezes each year, introduction of tuition fees, massively hiked pension contributions and worsened amount, and now more antisocial hours, inevitably longer hours due to worse staffing levels and the removal of safeguards to prevent that, and a "pay-neutral" contract that will revert to a 20-30% pay-cut in 3 years, and a removal of pay progression based on years of experience.

So yes, Jeremy Hunt is trying to get a great deal and pay junior doctors less, but please try and understand why they're striking. Any other profession faced with this deal would do the same.
 
Soldato
Joined
13 Mar 2006
Posts
6,712
I have a question on this... Possibly already answered.

If doctors are already working 'mega hours', say to 8pm a day, and they get bonus time from, say, 6pm.... And the proposed chance is to get bonus time from 8pm.... then to me it seems the whole issue IS about pay.

Or is that not what it's about? I mean, it's not wrong to complain about reductions in pay, but that's not the same as complaining about patient safety.

Educate me, OCUK!

Junior doctors generally work 48 hours a week on average. As it stands Monday-Friday 7am-7pm is considered normal hours, and depending upon the proportion of hours of the 48 that are antisocial dictates the 'banding', which is the % supplement that is added to the basic wage. This is generally 40% or 50%, so a 1st year doctor will generally be on around 33-34k ish.

The reality is that often jobs will be short staffed such that juniors regularly work an hour or two or three each day, and that's one of the major concerns, that spreading an already understaffed workforce over more weekend shifts and the removal of safeguards to financially penalise hospitals that purposefully understaff will result in greater hours worked by junior doctors and more unsafe patient-care.
 
Associate
Joined
5 Apr 2004
Posts
495
Location
London
The contract is only partly about pay, there are all sorts of proposals, such as the definition of antisocial hours, whether pay progression is about experience or level of training, which has ramifications for women with children working part time and doctors taking time out to pursue research, changing the safe guards which protect doctors from being over worked and therefore preventing patients being cared for by overly tired doctors. I'm sure there are many more, but I find it too boring to look into. Besides that most doctors have no real information about what is being negotiated or what offers exist as this is all done behind closed doors between the BMA, NHS Employers and Department for Health. We just read the headlines like everyone else.

I'm about half way through my speciality training and my current contract is due to end in Feb 2017. If this goes through, I'll personally take up locum jobs until such a time that a real contract is back on the table. I personally don't mind if I spend the rest of my life only having reached a certain grade on paper as ultimately it's about your experience and dedication and that has nothing to do with a contract. I suspect many doctors will do the same and many more will just leave the profession or the country. The next few years won't be boring anyway, the conservatives have made sure of that!
 
Soldato
Joined
23 Dec 2013
Posts
3,527
Location
North Wales
Sadly this is what happens when the tories get voted in, they want us all paying out of our arses for private healthcare. Making the NHS look like a complete mess is a good way of trying to do that. Jeremy Hunt? More like Jeremy ****.

Glad i live in Wales where Jeremy **** can't put his grubby mitts.
 
Last edited:
Associate
Joined
5 Apr 2004
Posts
495
Location
London
There's not much point in debating whether doctors are paid enough because they on mass don't feel they deserve a pay cut, although for me I'm more angry about trying to redefine what a night shift is and whether weekend work is anti social as well as changing the safe guards for protecting working hours. Doctors don't need public support although we seem to have it, I could quit tomorrow and earn 5 times more if this is about pay and so could everyone else.
 
Soldato
Joined
7 Sep 2009
Posts
2,643
Location
London
Well ignoring safety concerns to patients and focusing purely on salary:

Most don't get 50% (1A banding)
Majority are 20 - 40%. Some none.

Quick maths
22k Base for starting junior doctor
+ 40% = 30.8k

Proposed banding cut and 11%rise = 24.4k

Overnight 6k drop in your salary oh and no one supporting you if you're forced to work ridiculous hours. 1 mistake in your judgement whilst your exhausted means GMC hearing and potential loss of licence. Btw you have to work Saturday and late evenings as "normal hours".

EDIT this is for 1st year junior. So if you're a few years along you'll be having even larger drops in salary.

Nitefly I posted this a few pages back. Purely focusing on salary and ignoring other issues.
 
Back
Top Bottom