So, this post office palaver then

[Diddums]

I watched a documentary on Youtube about this a couple of years ago and whilst it was a bit of an eye opener, I put a lot of it down to the usual clickbaity drama nonsense, but now this new show has come out about it and I've done a bit more reading and it genuinely beggars belief that this was allowed to happen in one of the world's leading nations despite all the noise and pleading around it.

I've not watched the new show yet, might do this evening, but hearing that Paula Vennell, the CEO of the post office at the time has handed back her CBE as a result was quite surprising. Hopefully she gets her arse handed to her too.

Not much else to add really, just thought I'd start a thread where we can follow the proceedings.

 

[200sols]

Shame its taken a TV show for it to be taken seriously.

 

[413x]

What happened?

 

[cu3ed]

Didn't one of the major investigation shows show exactly what has gone on years ago?...IE Royal Mail top people knew, people that work for Fujitsu knew, and did everything the could to cover it up? How where they getting away with this for so long and no one was held accountable?

 

[Raymond Lin]

What happened?

I think....if i recall correctly.

New accounting system introduced.
The system is basically rubbish, with accounting errors.
Post masters get blamed for stealing.
Post Office prosecuted them (I did not know they had powers...I thought it was only the CPS).
They were forced to admit guilt, pay back money wrongly accused or go to prison.

All because the system was wrong and nobody questioned the programming, or at least, those that did, had no powers.

 

[Haggisman]

It's "palaver"



*twitch*

 

[Slackworth]

Although I had some basic knowledge around it, I watched the program and I have to agree if what it showed really happened to the letter then I really don't understand how Fujitsu, the Post Office and it's people all the way to the top got away with it for so long or as it pointed out, where all the money actually went.

My only thought process around TV series in this style (not just the Post Office one but all) is they tend to add additional "drama" to make more of a point. There's no doubt though the sub-postmasters should all be cleared with financial settlements of the value they paid to the Post Office + compensation so they can find some sense of closure about it all.

 

[john_smith]

Didn't one of the major investigation shows show exactly what has gone on years ago?...IE Royal Mail top people knew, people that work for Fujitsu knew, and did everything the could to cover it up? How where they getting away with this for so long and no one was held accountable?

Correct.

 

[Rroff]

Sadly it is almost certainly a case of people knowing but washing their hands of any responsibility and/or turning a blind eye and at this point those that deserve punishment almost certainly won't get it.

 

[SpellowHouse]

Shame its taken a TV show for it to be taken seriously.

Typical government. Ignore it until it becomes a serious embarrassment. Their innaction in situations like this is unbelievable. Why is it they consistently fail to do their job?

I watched a documentary on Youtube about this a couple of years ago and whilst it was a bit of an eye opener, I put a lot of it down to the usual clickbaity drama nonsense, but now this new show has come out about it and I've done a bit more reading and it genuinely beggars belief that this was allowed to happen in one of the world's leading nations despite all the noise and pleading around it.

I've not watched the new show yet, might do this evening, but hearing that Paula Vennell, the CEO of the post office at the time has handed back her CBE as a result was quite surprising. Hopefully she gets her arse handed to her too.

Not much else to add really, just thought I'd start a thread where we can follow the proceedings.

I doubt it is actually her fault. It's probably a bunch of middle managers who just put way too much faith in the software. But, I suppose we will eventually find out, in God knows how many years, who was actually to blame.

The Government has a horrible record with software development. This is probably down to the fact that they haven't a darn clue when it comes to technology and Fujitsu probably runs rings around them - like all other large companies do.

Successive governments have ruined this countries technical abilities through sheer incompetence on their part. They really need to stop employing non-technical people to interface to these highly technical projects.

 

[413x]

I think....if i recall correctly.

New accounting system introduced.
The system is basically rubbish, with accounting errors.
Post masters get blamed for stealing.
Post Office prosecuted them (I did not know they had powers...I thought it was only the CPS).
They were forced to admit guilt, pay back money wrongly accused or go to prison.

All because the system was wrong and nobody questioned the programming, or at least, those that did, had no powers.

That's a great tldr. Passed me by completely

 

[Fubsy]

I worked in a sub post office until 2014. There were trickles of information coming out from small bits in newspapers, but the only thing actually I recall calling out PO on what was going on was in Private Eye. No one working on the counters knew what was happening, other than whispers.

The system changed over in 2012 (still called horizon as I can remember) and I don't have much recollection of what was there before other than it looking crazy basic, and I wasn't doing any accounting on it at that point.

If I had known what was going on, I'd have refused to have been involved in any of the back office activity - possibly exposing myself to being accused of theft at that point in my life would have made the life I have gone on to live impossible (in terms of career).

Successive governments have ruined this countries technical abilities through sheer incompetence on their part. They really need to stop employing non-technical people to interface to these highly technical projects.

They can't afford them. No one with the skills would work for them (government) if money/progression is the goal for an individual - the private sector will always offer them more and it'll be more interesting. It would have to be someone on a contractor basis (at great costs) and then also have an axe to grind against the private sector as I can't imagine a private company wanting to be involved with them in the future.

 

[peterwalkley]

It has ruined lives and led to several suicides. Many have died with a false guilty verdict taken to their graves. Postmasters were bullied into pleading guilty and paying back monies out of their own pockets "because the computer says so". Questions on whether the system was at fault were ignored and challengers to it sidelined or fired. Fujitsu is clearly to blame here for an utterly poo system, but the Post Office management bears real blame here for not challenging the accuracy of what they were buying and wondering why hundreds (!!!) of their postmasters were supposedly guilty of fraud.

Were this a private company I suspect they'd be shut down by now, but because its the Post Office and we all love our local postie, the management layer got away with bullying and incompetence.

ALL prosecutions based on evidence from that system are tainted evidence and should be quashed immediately. There possibly are genuine fraud cases in there, but the evidence trail is so stuffed that the cost to society of one or two getting away with it, compared to the hundreds of completely innocent people being had over is worthwhile.

 

[Diddums]

It's "palaver"



*twitch*

Calm down, if I'd known it irritated you I would have made it a lot worse

 

[Haggisman]

Calm down, if I'd known it irritated you I would have made it a lot worse

Why not just call it a meringue and be done with it?

 

[drakulton]

It's "palaver"



*twitch*

It’s a pullover.

 

[Fubsy]

Imagine giving your whole life savings, your business, your home (or at least heavily re-mortgaged) and your potential future financial security and the options that gives you and the money just goes into the PO and contributes to their profits - or, you go to jail.

You know what makes me mostly mad though? This has been going on for so damn long, and it takes a dramatic TV show that pulls at heart strings for the public to take notice on a large scale, yet some many other banal stuff causes outrage on a weekly basis

 

[SpellowHouse]

They can't afford them. No one with the skills would work for them (government) if money/progression is the goal for an individual - the private sector will always offer them more and it'll be more interesting. It would have to be someone on a contractor basis (at great costs) and then also have an axe to grind against the private sector as I can't imagine a private company wanting to be involved with them in the future.

Believe me, they are ridiculous. My company used to sell technical stuff to the government, and it was like selling computers to jellyfish. A bunch of utterly hopeless pipe-smokers, who had absolutely not a clue about what they were buying.

Companies specifically employ business and technical experts to interface to the government, while the government employs clueless political types.

I suppose I sound harsh, but then I am really annoyed at the way the government has allowed this country to go since WWII. We were one of the world leaders in technology, back then, now, thanks to the government, out tech industry has largely died.

 

[Feek]

It's "palaver"



*twitch*

Is that better?

 

[Voltar]

Everyone trusted the computer and what could be “shown” in black and white.

Can well see how postmasters would be advised by their lawyers that their trials before magistrates (who love a good computer says no) wouldn’t go well and to take credit.

What is also shameful is the lack of consideration by the prosecution lawyers as to why there were so many thefts of an identical nature and why so many of the people denied theft. Where there are over 900 the fact no one wanted to believe a computer program could be inaccurate is frightening. I can also see the real difficulty in challenging it in the magistrates court. I can picture the reception you’d get saying you want to get expert evidence and to demand disclosure and access from the post office.