Is airsoft still going to be legal?

Vulcan · 5 Sep 2007 at 22:46

Mr_White said:
You'd of rather had the sale and import of airsoft guns banned all together then?

This is a great result, it keeps the government happy, and was what we needed in the first place to stop most ***** getting their hands on them and giving airsoft a bad name, which was got us tied up in the whole VCR bill.

Doesn't matter if the UKARA scheme existed or not.

Re-enactment has an exemption, which is what airsoft is.

Mr_White · 5 Sep 2007 at 22:51

Longbow said:
Doesn't matter if the UKARA scheme existed or not.

Re-enactment has an exemption, which is what airsoft is.

Playing airsoft was never under threat, it was the future of the sport, the sale and import of the guns would have been banned.

There was no loop hole or exemption for that under the original bill, ABA and the rest of the airsoft community fought for the exemption and the membership scheme.

The sport would have eventually died without this outcome.

There's no pleasing some.

Mooron455 · 5 Sep 2007 at 22:52

My mate is mad on airsoft, i hope for his sake he can get one or he'll be devastated

Vulcan · 5 Sep 2007 at 23:11

Mr_White said:
Playing airsoft was never under threat, it was the future of the sport, the sale and import of the guns would have been banned.

There was no loop hole or exemption for that under the original bill, ABA and the rest of the airsoft community fought for the exemption and the membership scheme.

The sport would have eventually died without this outcome.

There's no pleasing some.

One of the exemptions from purchasing and selling imitation firearms:

VCRA said:
... and holding of historical re-enactments ...

Mr_White · 5 Sep 2007 at 23:12

Longbow said:
One of the exemptions from purchasing and selling imitation firearms:

Do you have the full quote for that? it looks like you've just stuck your post onto the quote, since that was never an exemption for the sale or import of airsoft guns in the original VCR bill.

Nor are we included under historical re-enactments.

Vulcan · 5 Sep 2007 at 23:20

Mr_White said:
Do you have the full quote for that? it looks like you've just stuck your post onto the quote

My bad...

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/ukpga_20060038_en.pdf

Pages 37 & 38.

Mr_White said:
Nor are we included under historical re-enactments.

What makes you think that?

Just because airsofters don't wear BDU issued in the 1940's doesn't mean it's not historical re-enactment.

Mr_White · 5 Sep 2007 at 23:25

Longbow said:
My bad...

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/ukpga_20060038_en.pdf

Page 42.

What makes you think that?

Just because airsofters don't wear BDU issued in the 1940's doesn't mean it's not historical re-enactment.

I can't see anything like that on page 42?

All that says is you can use that as a legal defence for manufacturing an RIF if you can prove it's for historical re-enactment, which again we're not included under, and if we were would involve buying seperate parts just to get a new airsoft gun, which would never work if you want the latest models etc, and it's still not a watertight defence, you could still get prosecuted, it's not an exemption of any kind.

Longbow said:
What makes you think that?

Just because airsofters don't wear BDU issued in the 1940's doesn't mean it's not historical re-enactment.

Historical re-enactment and the like includes educational events and theatre etc, not airsoft.

_dogma_ · 5 Sep 2007 at 23:34

Longbow said:
My bad...

Just because airsofters don't wear BDU issued in the 1940's doesn't mean it's not historical re-enactment.

It's not though.

Unfortunatley this means I won't get my MP5 for Christmas but hopefully the site I play at will do the whole membership thing.

Neocon- a lot of airsofters use full metal guns too... (I don't think that makes passing this any better)

Mr_White · 5 Sep 2007 at 23:36

_dogma_ said:
It's not though.

Unfortunatley this means I won't get my MP5 for Christmas but hopefully the site I play at will do the whole membership thing.

It's not as big of a deal as Longbow is making out, you will be able to get membership at pretty much every airsoft site that isn't run by some ***** on his wasteland

_dogma_ · 5 Sep 2007 at 23:40

Mr_White said:
It's not as big of a deal as Longbow is making out, you will be able to get membership at pretty much every airsoft site that isn't run by some ***** on his wasteland

There may be some problem there.... only joking

.

That's good. I haven't been airsofting for ages and I really miss it. Been saving up for new gun for so long that it would be a right kick in the teeth if I couldn't buy it!

Vulcan · 5 Sep 2007 at 23:46

Mr_White said:
It's not as big of a deal as Longbow is making out, you will be able to get membership at pretty much every airsoft site that isn't run by some ***** on his wasteland

I'm not the one making it out to be a big deal, I'm saying quite the opposite, that the exemption is already there.

And historical re-enactment doesn't have to include educational events for it to be historical re-enactment.

Shotgun_ned · 5 Sep 2007 at 23:52

Longbow said:
I'm not the one making it out to be a big deal, I'm saying quite the opposite, that the exemption is already there.

And historical re-enactment doesn't have to include educational events for it to be historical re-enactment.

You have to be part of a recognised reenactment group in order to qualify. Airsoft sites and teams etc don't count. We would have been unable to purchase guns at all if the original version had gone through.

Mr_White · 5 Sep 2007 at 23:57

Longbow said:
the exemption is already there.

It's not though, I just completely smashed your argument which was incorrect to begin with, you quoted it as being an exemption of sale and import of RIFs, when it was talking about the manufacturer of them, and was nothing more than a legal defence which wouldn't stop you getting prosecuted.

Vulcan · 6 Sep 2007 at 00:01

Shotgun_ned said:
You have to be part of a recognised reenactment group in order to qualify. Airsoft sites and teams etc don't count. We would have been unable to purchase guns at all if the original version had gone through.

You only need 1 person to start a re-enactment group and represent any part of history, including a battle that took place in Iraq yesterday. Being a member of such a group is no different than a site membership which is currently proposed.

And the exemption for the re-enactment has been there for a while, and the re-enactment community never raised a finger yet it got the exemption. The government want to tackle gun rather (in a rather pathetic way) but they didn't want people to forget the history of this country and what what the past generation gave for it, so re-enactment has always been set for an exemption.

Mr_White · 6 Sep 2007 at 00:11

Longbow said:
You only need 1 person to start a re-enactment group and represent any part of history, including a battle that took place in Iraq yesterday. Being a member of such a group is no different than a site membership which is currently proposed.

And the exemption for the re-enactment has been there for a while, and the re-enactment community never raised a finger yet it got the exemption. The government want to tackle gun rather (in a rather pathetic way) but they didn't want people to forget the history of this country and what what the past generation gave for it, so re-enactment has always been set for an exemption.

Are you reading anything I've posted?

re-enactment never had an exemption to purchase or import RIF, the bill banned the sale and import of RIF full stop, and any sport or event that used them would suffer.

Mr_White said:
It's not though, I just completely smashed your argument which was incorrect to begin with, you quoted it as being an exemption of sale and import of RIFs, when it was talking about the manufacturer of them, and was nothing more than a legal defence which wouldn't stop you getting prosecuted.

What you quoted was never an exemption for the import and sale of RIFs, which is what Airsoft was under threat from, nothing else, you could still play airsoft, carry out re-enactments, whatever.

You just wouldn't of been able to get the RIFs to do so if the original bill went through, end of.

Vulcan · 6 Sep 2007 at 00:19

Here is the defence for re-enactment for the sale, importation, manufacture and modification of RIF's.

Section 36 said:
Manufacture, import and sale of realistic imitation firearms

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if—

(a) he manufactures a realistic imitation firearm;

(b) he modifies an imitation firearm so that it becomes a realistic imitation firearm;

(c) he sells a realistic imitation firearm; or

(d) he brings a realistic imitation firearm into Great Britain or causes one to be brought into Great Britain.

(2) Subsection (1) has effect subject to the defences in section 37.

Section 37 said:
Specific defences applying to the offence under s. 36

(1) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 36 in respect of any conduct to show that the conduct was for the purpose only of making the imitation firearm in question available for one or more of the purposes specified in subsection (2).

(2) Those purposes are—

(a) the purposes of a museum or gallery;

(b) the purposes of theatrical performances and of rehearsals for such performances;

(c) the production of films (within the meaning of Part 1 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (c. 48)_see section 5B of that Act);

(d) the production of television programmes (within the meaning of the Communications Act 2003 (c. 21)_see section 405(1) of that Act);

(e) the organisation and holding of historical re-enactments organised and held by persons specified or described for the purposes of this section by regulations made by the Secretary of State;

(f) the purposes of functions that a person has in his capacity as a person in the service of Her Majesty.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/ukpga_20060038_en_5#pt2-pb5-l1g36

No where in the act does it state that the purchase of RIF is banned, exemption or not.

Mr_White · 6 Sep 2007 at 00:24

I give up.

It says It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 36

It is not an exemption of any kind, you could still end up in prison, yes I admit I mis-read it, it does also include sale and importation and manufacturing an RIF, but it's not an exemption.

ABA needn't of bothered, they should have just called you Longbow.

And the reason it no longer says the purchase of RIFs is banned is because it's not, but it's still illegal to manufacturer or purchase them without being a member of a skirmish site.

Vulcan · 6 Sep 2007 at 00:39

Mr_White said:
It is not an exemption of any kind

If this were true then the UKARA membership scheme has no hope, because as you said, there are no exemptions listed.

Mr_White said:
And the reason it no longer says the purchase of RIFs is banned is because it's not, but it's still illegal to manufacturer or purchase them without being a member of a skirmish site.

That statement contradicts it's self.

You don't have to be a member to purchase them. Full stop.

Mr_White · 6 Sep 2007 at 00:47

Longbow said:
If this were true then the UKARA membership scheme has no hope, because as you said, there are no exemptions listed

That statement contradicts it's self.

You don't have to be a member to purchase them. Full stop.

Any retailer who wishes to sell airsoft guns will be legally obliged to demonstrate that they have taken reasonably practicable steps to ensure that the purchaser is entitled to one of the exemptions or defences under the Act. UKARA (United Kingdom Airsoft Retailers Association) members have agreed to abide by a code of conduct, and have set up a national scheme that will ensure that they meet this test. Any retailer wishing to apply for membership should contact UKARA via their website. As an organisation, UKARA is dedicated to providing specialist airsoft equipment to skirmishers and not all retailers will be deemed suitable applicants for membership. Please see "Non UKARA Members" below should you fall into this category. Regardless of membership, anyone being granted access to the database for the purposes of trading in realistic imitation firearms will be contractually obliged to abide by the Code of Conduct.

And if you think you'll still be importing them:

This is an area that any scheme will struggle to address due to the complex nature of the relationships involved.
UKARA will carefully consider any approach from any courier company that wishes to offer a "clearing" service to its customer to facilitate personal importation of RIFs. This will be offered on a commercial basis. We may make available the ability to check players’ details via the database to Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs (HMRC). It is unlikely however that HMRC will check individual imports and no purchaser should count on this. HMRC are extremely busy and have higher priorities. You should therefore be aware that any airsoft gun imported after 1st October might be subject to seizure & destruction.

Overseas retailers.
Retailers based outside the United Kingdom will not be allowed access to the database. This scheme is for the benefit of the UK airsoft community. Oversees retailers have not helped UK airsofters throughout the long period of consultation & representation and furthermore we are concerned about possible security implications and abuse of the system from areas of the world where we might struggle to achieve adequate legal redress. Since such abuse could compromise and possibly threaten the defence itself, we deem the risk to outweigh any perceived benefits.

Still want to argue?

Vulcan · 6 Sep 2007 at 00:57

Mr_White said:
Still want to argue?

Of course

Any retailer who wishes to sell airsoft guns will be legally obliged to demonstrate that they have taken reasonably practicable steps to ensure that the purchaser is entitled to one of the exemptions or defences under the Act.

Oh say like.... re-enacting? What other exemption/defence is there listed for airsofters?