TF2 or Fortress Forever?
- Thread starter Dyson
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I concur... Made for easy play, rather than intelligent play...
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How many hours have you put into TF2? I ask as skill still shines through and there is no definitive paper-scissors-stone play. For example just the other night I was a medic healing a HWG, HWG was taken down and then I proceeded to kill the scout who killed him, a nearby soldier and a spy (And medics generally suck offensively). Same again as sniper, I had a blinding round, got a load of head shots and then ran into the central CP, killed 2 people with my pistol, hacked another to death, and survived.
One might say TFC is tooo even and santised as everything is offence and any class is generally equal against the others. I'm only slightly picking faults as it seems a hardcore group of TFC fans seem to be stating things about TF2 which simply aren't true, so i have to question if they've actually given it any serious time before coming to such negative conclusions (rather than attacking something they see as threatening their TFC, FF etc).
What would you class as intelligent play? Like TFC players earlier in the thread saying everyone runs for the flag and happily suicides to get it out? Or tactical play like TF2 needs to be successful?
Interesting that your first point mentions that a HWG was taken down by a scout? Hmmm.... Yes.... Hmmm.....
EDIT: Just off another couple of games of it... It's just slow, clunky and 'flat'... There's no variety and surprise. No way to play innovatively...
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How is TF2 `tactical`? Going on a suicide run to take out turrets and defenders to clear the flag has more game play depth than TF2 could hope for. What seriously does TF2 give us that doesnt already exist?
Yep, they've dumbed it down and simplified it to make it easily accessible to the masses. It's kinda like a car that's be designed by a panel of people where anything that one person dislikes is removed. You end up with something perfectly functional, but lacking in any real interest...
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A scout got the kill yes, but i'm guessing that nearby soldier shooting off rockets got some damage in too. Close range headshot from a scouts rifle does a lot of damage and could take down a HWG.
and i'm sure that within 2 weeks of the original TFC betas starting people were conc jumping, bunnyhopping etc all over the map? 2 weeks into a beta is a very short time to state there is no way to play innovately, come back in a year and see what players are up to then.
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How is that depth? That is taking the simplest route to the target regardless of repercussions or damage. Depth would be finding ways to take the flag without death rather than blundering in and suiciding.
It gives us more defined roles, some of which are not 'ubber 1 man armies', and so it requires more intelligent play. Running in and suiciding wouldn't work against a few of the turrents in TF2, so team play (involving different classes) is needed to get the flag/point etc.
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And once again, having such opinions less than 2 weeks into a beta where people don't really know what classes are capable off, or what innovative play is possible sounds a bit like sour grapes.
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But you can see all they've done is strip TFC down to a simpler game. It's a game made to make it easily accessible with less to learn and less 'tricks of the trade'.
My God they've even simplified armour and health into just health...
This is one case where less is certainly not more...
Lacking in any real interest? Have you actually seen how many people have PAID for the TF2 beta and are currently playing at any one time on Steam? Perhaps you ought to have a proper look. The vast majority of servers I've tried to connect to always make me have to Auto Retry in order to get in to play. TF2 is an extremely popular game and it's still only 2 weeks into the major beta testing phase.
I would consider myself a die-hard TFC fan (until the game got ruined by bunnyhopping and such) that played it every night for many years, running up huge phone bills in the days of paid dialup. Hell, I used to come home from school in the afternoon and play it, which used to cost a fortune, but I didn't care because I just wanted to play TFC. Having said that, I haven't yet played FF. I know that FF is true to the original TFC and I will be trying it at some point, but I can't even be bothered to finish the 500mb download in the evening when I get home because I'd rather play TF2 over gimping my connection just to finish the download. If I wasn't so drawn in by TF2 then that would be a different matter but I am so FF will have to wait, and I am not particularly bothered because I am having so much fun playing TF2 with an open mind and not trying to turn it into TFC.
I honestly can't see what is so bad about TF2. Sure, it's not TFC, but I never ever expected TF2 to be anything like TFC used to be. TFC died a long time ago, it simply isn't the game it was back then and things have moved on considerably. The way the classes work in TF2 now is far better than the way they used to work in TFC. Classes now have to rely on one another to get the job done. Medic actually has a feasible function in a team, instead of being the slightly slower, healing flag capper capable of concing to unreachable areas on the map. Teamwork plays a huge part in the game now too, not only for defence (as it was mostly focused in TFC) but for offence as well. Yeah, clan games had organised attack, but it was the same old classes doing the same thing over and over. Sacrifice yourself to that SG over there so that our scout can make an attempt at the flag. That's not a tactic at all, no matter which way you look at it.
I admit that there are a few balance issues that need to be sorted out (Scouts are a little too powerful with their scattergun, Demo's can too easily rack up kills) but honestly, I've never seen such a varied usage of the classes in TF games. TFC never used all of the classes to their full potential, and rarely used them in the role they were intended for. Attack groups were mostly made up of Scouts and Medics, with maybe the odd occasional soldier accompanying them. Now it's viable for HWG's and Demomen to make up the attack side as well as the defensive side because it's extremely difficult to take out Sentry Guns without a Demoman if it's hidden away around a corner. Also, things like laying down an SG and then going offence as an Engineer with the EMP spam was a tactic employed a lot in TFC but it is non-existent in TF2 because there are no longer grenades. The Engineer has been put back into his proper defensive role, where he excels because that's how it is intended, rather than abusing his extremely damaging ability to use EMP grenades to destroy any and all in the way.
Don't get me wrong, I loved TFC back in the day, but I've come to the realisation that things can be just as enjoyable as TFC used to be, with a vast number of new, great improvements that most could never have even considered to work in a game like that.
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Agreed certain aspects have been simplified, but I have a feeling that there is a lot under the surface for long term players to learn and take advantage of, and the more defined roles have caught my interest. It feels like a very different game to TFC - which is why i like both.
If I could change TFC I would:-
1) Prevent EMPs killing people through walls. Objects (eg: Sgs) are fine.
2) No bunny hopping.
3) Introduce the stats in TF2 into TFC.
That's it...
Yes a lot of people are playing TF2, but a lot of people read the Sun
Of course I'm playing devil's advocate here as I haven't thusfar enjoyed TF2... I say 'thus far' as I'll keep trying and hopefully I'll get into it... But after the sessions so far my gutt feeling is it just seems to 'simplified for the masses'...
By this I mean they've removed variety. For example, why not have some dual uses on some weapons for example. Shot guns that can with a right click to fire two shots quickly, but then take a little longer to loads. Or allowing a HW to right click to narrow/increase his rate of fire, but then cannot move and takes a second to undeploy from this position...
See what I mean...?
Anyway, I'll invest some more time and hopefully I'll come round...
If I could change TFC I would:-
1) Prevent EMPs killing people through walls. Objects (eg: Sgs) are fine.
2) No bunny hopping.
3) Introduce the stats in TF2 into TFC.
That's it...
Yes a lot of people are playing TF2, but a lot of people read the Sun
Of course I'm playing devil's advocate here as I haven't thusfar enjoyed TF2... I say 'thus far' as I'll keep trying and hopefully I'll get into it... But after the sessions so far my gutt feeling is it just seems to 'simplified for the masses'...
By this I mean they've removed variety. For example, why not have some dual uses on some weapons for example. Shot guns that can with a right click to fire two shots quickly, but then take a little longer to loads. Or allowing a HW to right click to narrow/increase his rate of fire, but then cannot move and takes a second to undeploy from this position...
See what I mean...?
Anyway, I'll invest some more time and hopefully I'll come round...
Why don't you put your suggestions up on the Steam forum or post them to Valve through the ingame reporting system? They're very valid suggestions and would definitely benefit the game if they were brought in. The whole point of this beta is to provide whatever feedback you have on the game and how you see it. Who knows, they might make the changes you suggest
Why don't you put your suggestions up on the Steam forum or post them to Valve through the ingame reporting system? They're very valid suggestions and would definitely benefit the game if they were brought in. The whole point of this beta is to provide whatever feedback you have on the game and how you see it. Who knows, they might make the changes you suggest
I believe TF2 is Gold now... ie: What you see now, is basically what you're getting...
Sorry! It's crud! I've tried and tried but it's just flat - perfectly engineered paper-scissors-stones with ease of access as the first priority, and skillful varied play down the list some where.
Case in hand, being taken out (as a soldier) but lunatic jumping scouts in 2-3 shots...
Every class is now as powerful as every other class basically... It's daft and dull... Sorry...
Case in hand, being taken out (as a soldier) but lunatic jumping scouts in 2-3 shots...
Every class is now as powerful as every other class basically... It's daft and dull... Sorry...