Anyone ever got a penalty fare/fine on the DLR or Tube?

[fuzzy]

I would like to add my dissatification with the system. Take this example:

I come from West Dulwich train station. From here you can not use pre pay, but you can load a travel card onto your oyster card. So I think great. So, I do it once at a booth. The next week I do it on the internet and ask it to update at blackfriars. My journey is from West Dulwich into Blackfriars, then to Mansion House. So...I get on the train and get to Blackfriars. I try and proceed through the barriers. Doesn't let me. Hmmm I think. Go to guard who proceeds to tell me there is no travelcard on my oyster card and I am about to be fined £20 + cost of journey from West Dulwich. I pay fine and tell him where to go. I go downstairs and into tube system. Just out of curiosity, I try to touch in. I get through fine.

So it turns out that oyster cards ONLY update at oyster points at tube stations not at train stations. I mean ffs.

Personally, I don't even like the way you touch in. Doesn't work through my wallet and not always even as a card by itself. This invariably puts me in the rather embarrassing situation of getting crushed by the barriers as I am always in a rush to get through. I have since gone back to paper cards.

 

[MTA99]

Quick question... MTA99, were you suited and booted when he "let you off"?

Don't remember but highly unlikely. Usually wear smart jeans and a polo shirt or smart t-shirt with scruffy gym bag over shoulder Occasionally wear a suit but its very infrequently.

 

[Hen_Dawg]

I'm going against the self-righteous theme of this thread by saying I sympathise with you completely.
I've spent thousands of pounds of train fares in my life and buy tickets every time, but I can remember an occasion where I've been caught out and had do do what Scam did in a similar situation.
To be falsely threatened by the inspector is where you can appeal. Even if you don't get your money back, you may get something and the inspector may get disciplined.

Good question about the suit though. I travel every day on South West Trains at the moment and see almost daily suited and booted businessmen clearly fare jumping but show the man their platinum card and no questions are asked.
As soon as someone in Addidas top doesn't have one they get a lecture at least, if not a fine.

 

[Jimmi]

I dont think i'm being ridiculous at all. £20 is an unfair fine for someone who was in my position.

Its £20................its not the end of the world is it, pay the fine and get on with life

 

[HangTime]

What if i had no cash to buy a ticket anyway, either?

Then what are you doing catching a train with no means of payment?

Also not to sure as to what relevance being a tourist has to whether you should have to pay or not, unless there's some scheme in London I'm not aware of.

 

[Danger Phoenix]

I once walked into a local Costcutters (I was a tourist in the area and didn't know the location of any other shop) with no money or cards, and decided to buy some biscuits. I picked up the packet and walked to the till, where I was surprised to see no one present.

I only had one option... leave with the biscuits and hope I could pay for them later.

For some reason, the police laughed at my reasoning and I got prosecuted for shoplifting

 

[krooton]

I only read page 1, but what you are supposed to do in that situation is seek out the guard dude as soon as you get on and let him know, then he would sell you a ticket. The DLR has the highest number of fare evaders due to lack of barriers and such, you can't really hold it against them for assuming you were a fare evader.

 

[Scam]

Its £20................its not the end of the world is it, pay the fine and get on with life

Wow. Worth bumping an old thread to impart that wonderful piece of advice? Almost as good as suggesting to buy a car!

you can't really hold it against them for assuming you were a fare evader.

Yep. Throughout my argument with the guard, i repeatedly agreed with him that from his position he could just treat me as a fare-dodger and be done with it. But then i went on to explain the situation; my attempts to top up my card, look for a ticket machine, look for an inspector, sit at the front where it was most likely a driver/guard would come along.. and it's here that he should be using his discretion (as advertised) and not issue me with the fine. Combine that with him not explaining [a] that i would be fined at first forcing me to pay the fine there-and-then, when he had no right [c] not correctly writing down my intended destination [d] the fact that myself and my girlfriend touched-in - clearly no attempt to 'evade' the fare..

I could go on but i've said it all before, and i'm not gonna quote the entirety of the letter on here!

EDIT: @HangTime, the Oyster was my means of payment. You can top it up with cards (when there's a machine..) hence there's no real reason to carry cash as a backup, as such. not to mention the overdraft facility. My mistake was assuming that all stations had Oyster top-up machines!

 

[sunama]

OK I work for London Underground so hopefully I can shed a little light on this.

First off, I like the username of the thread starter.
Here goes...

Everyone who travels on London Underground must have a valid ticket with them (or be authorised to travel without one - a member of staff or uniformed Police Officer can do this). If anyone else is found on a train or in a 'Compulsory Ticketing Area', then they are liable for a £20 Penalty Fare Notice. This info is printed on every station as you enter/exit the station. It is also printed inside every single train carriage.

Its simple: if you are on a train you must have a ticket (and buy it before you travel, not during, not after), unless authorised by the persons listed above. No ifs. No buts. No, "I'm a tourist and didnt know I had to buy a ticket."

In the original poster's case, he doesnt know much about the underground system, so he could be forgiven. However, officially, he had to be penalty fared. If he appeals, I think it will be a waste of his time, however, his best angle of appeal would be to say:

1. he was a tourist and has only been to London a few times, as shown by his home address.
2. he stamped his Oyster, it said, "seek assistance". He looked around for a member of staff but couldnt find one. He then decided to board the train and hope to find a member of staff on the train or at his destination station.

What the thread starter should've done is looked for a ticket machine and bought one from there. Oyster gives you a small discount over paper/magnetic tickets, however, this discount is not available to people who have no money on their Oysters. If the thread starter wanted to put money on his Oyster, he shouldve gone to a local newsagent and topped up there.

In cases where there is no intention (or planning) to avoid his fare, but has no ticket, the customer is issued a Penalty Fare (can be issued only by ticket inspectors). If, however, the customer is showing signs that he planned or intended to avoid his fare, then he is booked for fare evasion with possible court proceedings and a fine of upto £1000.

The ticket inspector was obliged to take at least the minimum fare from you. In this case I think it wouldve been £4 (not sure). If you dont pay the full fare, you must give your name and address. This is the law and you may be arrested for not doing so. If you pay £20, there is no need to provide any details/info about yourself. If you refuse to pay the Penalty Fare Notice, then the ticket inspector shall take down your details, ask you a few questions and then you may be taken to court.

The Penalty Fare Notice is a fare. It is not a fine. Only a court can issue you with a fine.

I know that some of you feel that you should be able to buy tickets after you have travelled, but this is actually against the rules of London Underground. If you get caught without a ticket, you will be issued with a Penalty Fare and if you dont, you should count yourself lucky. The top 2 reasons for issuing penalty fares are:

"I was in a rush. I saw the train and boarded and didnt have time to buy a ticket."
"I lost my ticket."

I think I've covered everything. Any more questions?

 

[Scam]

I think I've covered everything. Any more questions?

Sure

The ticket inspector was obliged to take at least the minimum fare from you. In this case I think it wouldve been £4 (not sure). If you dont pay the full fare, you must give your name and address. This is the law and you may be arrested for not doing so. If you pay £20, there is no need to provide any details/info about yourself. If you refuse to pay the Penalty Fare Notice, then the ticket inspector shall take down your details, ask you a few questions and then you may be taken to court.

Firstly, if i wasnt obliged to give any details, why was that the *first thing* the inspector did? Before even telling me whether or not i was incurring a fine (oh alright, *penalty fare*).

Secondly, would you agree he was in the wrong for telling me that i had to pay the *full amount* or get a court summons? I even offered him the price of a single but he wasnt having any of it..

In the original poster's case, he doesnt know much about the underground system, so he could be forgiven.

Obviously, i agree with you. Does this not fall under the discretion that the inspector should be using?

Here's another question. What does 'seek assistance' actually mean in an un-staffed station? I honestly would like to know. For example my dad used to lend an Oyster card to a lot of foreign business visitors when they travelled to London. Should the card run out on them, is it not a bit silly that all the message says is 'seek assistance'? Why does it not state that the card is simply out of money, or that you should 'buy ticket' or something? I mean, what should they do when the message says 'seek assistance' in an unstaffed station?

Regarding what you say about having a valid ticket, all the stuff i've read on the matter seems to say something along the lines of 'valid ticket, or validated Oyster card'. Wouldnt you agree that again, for a tourist, it's not exactly clear that 'seek assistance' means that your card is not validated. In fact is a card validated regardless of whether or not there's money on it? This also isnt clear

If he appeals, I think it will be a waste of his time, however, his best angle of appeal would be to say:

1. he was a tourist and has only been to London a few times, as shown by his home address.
2. he stamped his Oyster, it said, "seek assistance". He looked around for a member of staff but couldnt find one. He then decided to board the train and hope to find a member of staff on the train or at his destination station.

Good to hear, that's exactly my approach. As well as clearly detailing when i tried to top-up my Oyster card (twice).

 

[banja]

I'm clearly not a very evolved chap, but ignoring the self righteous internet warriors on here (who've never done anything even vaguely illegal ever) my approach would have been.

Get on and if I don't get checked, have a little whoop, then forget about it.
Get on and if I do get checked, pay the penalty, then forget about it.

Yin and Yang.

 

[Deep]

You took a tube journey without paying for it and wonder why you got a penalty fair?

Sorry, but what?

as someone said not everything is black and white.

recently i got the train to waterloo from the underground to catch an national r(f)ail train. the underground was delayed so when i got to waterloo i had 1 minute to catch my train, no time to buy a ticket, and there is pretty much always an inspector on board. if i missed it i would have had to wait 40 minutes till the next train and by then i would have been really really late for uni.

this time there wasnt, i arrived at my destination and spoke to the staff who issue penalties out (i couldnt get through the barriers), and told them exactly what happened. my train was late, minute left and i would have had to wait another 40minutes for next train. They didnt give me a fine because they see me every week catching the train to go to uni and go back home.

so discretion is allowed, it should not just be "no ticket = fine"

 

[sunama]

Firstly, if i wasnt obliged to give any details, why was that the *first thing* the inspector did? Before even telling me whether or not i was incurring a fine (oh alright, *penalty fare*).

His final action was to take £20 from you and not take your details. This was the correct action. He made an error when filling out the PFN, however, everyone makes mistakes.

Secondly, would you agree he was in the wrong for telling me that i had to pay the *full amount* or get a court summons? I even offered him the price of a single but he wasnt having any of it..

All I can say is that we are instructed to get at least the cash (paper ticket) fare for the journey. If we can see the person's pockets are empty then we either book them for fare evasion (court proceedings with details) or give them a nil Penalty Fare (with details) where they pay the full £20 in the next 21 days at any London Underground ticket office.

I think the problem was that it was obvious that you had £20 with you. In this situation you would have to give a good reason as to why you only wished to pay the cash fare for the journey.

There is no harm though. If your appeal is successful, you will get the £20 back. If it isnt you would've had to pay the £20 anyway. So, its the same final result.

Obviously, i agree with you. Does this not fall under the discretion that the inspector should be using?

Yes. And discretion is down to each individual ticket inspector. Every human wouldve dealt with you in a different manner. Same applies to the Police.

Here's another question. What does 'seek assistance' actually mean in an un-staffed station? I honestly would like to know. For example my dad used to lend an Oyster card to a lot of foreign business visitors when they travelled to London. Should the card run out on them, is it not a bit silly that all the message says is 'seek assistance'? Why does it not state that the card is simply out of money, or that you should 'buy ticket' or something?

This is indeed a problem. Unfortunately, the codes that are thrown up are only understood by London Underground staff. The common ones are:

36 (no money or travelcard on your oyster)
94 & 70 (ticket hasnt been read properly. try again)
24 (negative balance on your oyster needs to be cleared before traveling)

The most common one is obviously 94, in which case you should keep touching until you get a successful validation.

I mean, what should they do when the message says 'seek assistance' in an unstaffed station?

Keep touching your Oyster on the reader. If you still dont get any joy and dont understand the reason codes, then assume you dont have enough money on your oyster and load it up using the ticket machines. Most stations will have these. Failing that, top-up at a local newsagent. Failing that phone up the Oystercard helpline. Failing that look for a help point on the station. Failing that buy a paper ticket from the machine.

There really isnt any reason for you to travel without a ticket.

Regarding what you say about having a valid ticket, all the stuff i've read on the matter seems to say something along the lines of 'valid ticket, or validated Oyster card'. Wouldnt you agree that again, for a tourist, it's not exactly clear that 'seek assistance' means that your card is not validated. In fact is a card validated regardless of whether or not there's money on it? This also isnt clear

A valid paper ticket is obvious.
A validated oyster is when you touch the oyster at the barrier and the barrier opens up for you. If there are no barriers but a platform oyster reader (I think DLR stations have these) then touch on that and look for a single beep with a green light. This will constitute a validated oyster. A double beep and red light is not a validated oyster.

If you are a tourist then yes, I do agree, Oystercards can be a nightmare. However, tourists mostly use stations in central London where there are plenty of staff.

If I was a tourist in another country, I would damn well make doubly sure that I had a valid ticket for every part of my journey. I suggest in future, you do the same.

Good to hear, that's exactly my approach. As well as clearly detailing when i tried to top-up my Oyster card (twice).

If you have proof of attempting to top up (internet print-outs, emails, receipts, make copies of them and send them in also), it might help your case.

 

[Raymond Lin]

so discretion is allowed, it should not just be "no ticket = fine"

But its their choice, and if they had fined you they are perfectly within their rights to do so.

 

[sunama]

as someone said not everything is black and white.

recently i got the train to waterloo from the underground to catch an national r(f)ail train. the underground was delayed so when i got to waterloo i had 1 minute to catch my train, no time to buy a ticket, and there is pretty much always an inspector on board. if i missed it i would have had to wait 40 minutes till the next train and by then i would have been really really late for uni.

this time there wasnt, i arrived at my destination and spoke to the staff who issue penalties out (i couldnt get through the barriers), and told them exactly what happened. my train was late, minute left and i would have had to wait another 40minutes for next train. They didnt give me a fine because they see me every week catching the train to go to uni and go back home.

so discretion is allowed, it should not just be "no ticket = fine"

Thats a classic penalty fare. "I saw the train. I boarded. I didnt have time to buy a ticket."

Of course, discretion can see to it that you are not penalty fared. Nothing wrong with that.

Its like saying:
I went to Tesco during my lunch hour at work.
I bought a sandwich.
The queues were very very long.
I waited 15 mins int the queue and I still wasnt in front of the queue.
I had 5 mins left to get back to work.
I decided to leave the queue and the supermarket, sandwich in hand.
The security guard stopped me.
I told him that I was late for work and I would come back after work to pay for the sandwich.

...I wonder if Tesco would allow me to walk off and pay after I had eaten the sandwich. I think not. The rules are, you pay BEFORE you consume the sandwich and walk out of the store. Not after. No matter how honest you are. Same for the railway - you must pay for the service BEFORE you use it, not after. Cinema tickets, plane tickets, theatre tickets, etc - they all work in exactly the same way.

 

[Danger Phoenix]

I once walked into a local Costcutters (I was a tourist in the area and didn't know the location of any other shop) with no money or cards, and decided to buy some biscuits. I picked up the packet and walked to the till, where I was surprised to see no one present.

I only had one option... leave with the biscuits and hope I could pay for them later.

For some reason, the police laughed at my reasoning and I got prosecuted for shoplifting

My story was better

 

[sunama]

lol sorry. I skipped a few posts and missed yours.

 

[Scam]

*bump*

It had been a month since i sent off my appeal and this Tuesday i decided to chase them up on the phone. Today i came home from work to find this in my inbox:

Mr (name)

Thank you for your email, it finally got through the phishing net.

I have looked at all the points you outline in your letter and it and it
does appear to have been a mixed up day.

The TI should have told you what he intended to do, he also should have
made you aware The penalty fare was only for DLR.

For future reference if you are not able to top-up please buy a ticket from
the machine so you are able to travel without any problems.

The TI concerned no longer works with DLR.

I am waiving the Penalty Fare on this occasion due to the circumstances, I
have added you to our database and requested a cheque for £20, this should
be with you in 14 days( strikes allowing)

Kind regards

(name)
Customer Service Administrator
Serco Ltd trading as Serco Docklands

Well, well, well. Interesting to know that the TI concerned no longer works for the DLR, although in reality i doubt that had anything to do with this incident.

I'm not expecting a whole heap of replies to this post, as a lot of self-righteous zealots were proven completely wrong, but there you go. I'm a happy bunny.

 

[Raymond Lin]

The important point here is

For future reference if you are not able to top-up please buy a ticket from
the machine so you are able to travel without any problems.

So, get a ticket next time.

 

[Rich_L]

*bump*

It had been a month since i sent off my appeal and this Tuesday i decided to chase them up on the phone. Today i came home from work to find this in my inbox:



Well, well, well. Interesting to know that the TI concerned no longer works for the DLR, although in reality i doubt that had anything to do with this incident.

I'm not expecting a whole heap of replies to this post, as a lot of self-righteous zealots were proven completely wrong, but there you go. I'm a happy bunny.

Sounds about right from anecdotes of friends - if it's genuinely a bit of a mix-up and you don't have any 'priors', then they are pretty good. Glad it was sorted out