So who's reduced their carbon footprint?

[Dolph]

Stupid? Sorry but do you know what they have in the ground?

God your the only person in the world then outside of SA.

If they came out and said, sorry we cannot produce any more oil about our quota because we haven't got it to pump, and at the same time said they only have 15 years of reserves left; the market would go crazy.

And don't think that couldn't happen down the line, because i to be honest i think its happening now, they said they have increased production, but if i remember correctly they are pumping no more than they did this time last year.

Your paranoia is not a basis for anything useful or constructive.

It is not in SA's interest to end up in the situation you have described.

That is why the statement of "it could happen if <insert random implausible event> happened tomorrow" is irrationally stupid. It makes no sense, adds nothing to the argument and basically shows far more about your own biases than anything else.

 

[teaboy5]

Yes

So come on tell us? How many barrels off oil do they have? Because if you can answer that then your one of the very few people in the world.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Well, actually if you calculate fuel duty the same way you calculate all other taxes it's about 400%

Makes VAT look positively sane...

I quite agree. The only good thing about the taxation levels is it negates much of the impact of oil price rises. Oil has gone up by 2-3 times in the last 5 years yet fuel price has gone up what, 20p?

 

[Dolph]

I quite agree. The only good thing about the taxation levels is it negates much of the impact of oil price rises. Oil has gone up by 2-3 times in the last 5 years yet fuel price has gone up what, 20p?

About that, and some of that has been down to rising taxation and VAT...

 

[Simon]

So come on tell us? How many barrels off oil do they have? Because if you can answer that then your one of the very few people in the world.

More than your life time needs to worry about.

Then of course there is coal gasification and GTL products.

 

[m_cozzy]

Not interested in my carbon footprint in the slightest but have recently sold nearly all my old pc's & servers and my quarterly elecy bill has literally halved to less then £100. Good enough for me

 

[Dolph]

More than your life time needs to worry about.

Then of course there is coal gasification and GTL products.

Shhh, there's an agenda at work here. Facts are irrelevant and unwelcome in the face of emotion, irrational arguments and unnecessary, pointless regulation designed to make a few people feel all smug...

 

[Jet]

CO2 per capita is a pointless figure, given that even the most wacky scientific models work on CO2 not how many people produce it...

Does the enviroment care whether a ton of carbon is produced by one person or ten?

It doesn't matter from an environmental perspective but when half the people in the thread say we should give up because we are a small country and have no effect or that China are the bad guys it becomes an interesting point to look at.

Also, is it easier to convince 1 person to reduce output or 10 individual people?

Convincing a few million people in the UK or US to change will have a greater effect on the climate than convincing a few million Chinese to change at this point in time.

Why is that relevant?

Who's forcing me to recycle as much rubbish as I can? Who's forcing me to cycle on short journeys? No-one is. Who's to say a Chinese person won't take a similar view? People should stop looking at countries as a whole and consider personal responsibility.

Still China, becuase they have a huge population, and thus, are a huge issue.

Say China decides to split itself into 4 separate states. Then it would no longer be a problem?

It's unfair to consider China the bad guys just because they have a larger population. They don't even emit as much as the US atm.

Consider this then. China are responsible for 18% of all CO2 emissions. That means the rest of the world is responsible for 82%. Do you think that if the entire rest of the world reduced emissions there would be no effect on climate change. Of course there would.

Almost certainly. But if we all make an effort, China will find another excuse.

Who cares? Let them make excuses. I don't think we can accurately predict what China's response will be in the future anyway but that's a different point.

My point is that if we do nothing, even if China came around it would be too late. I personally think we can reduce our 80% emissions and actually have an effect with or without China.

And the reason China emits so much?

"Every time we hear a government minister talking about climate change, they seem to be drawn towards scapegoating China and its rising emissions," said Nef's policy director Andrew Simms.

"But a big factor in that rise is that China has become the major factory for the western world, so their greenhouse gas emissions are largely driven by higher levels of consumption in the west."

Where do you think your BMW is made?

It's probably not China lol, but you get my point.

So it's our fault they emit so much, it's our fault the CO2 levels are so high yet we use them as an excuse to do nothing. Shameful.

What can I ask is people's solutions for preventing the billions (predicted in 2100) of people dying as a result.

Say the rest of the world can reduce emissions to give us 5 more years before the worst hits. This may give us just enough time to adapt or better adapt.

Or at least time to build some sort of ark...

 

[Glaucus]

It doesn't matter from an environmental perspective but when half the people in the thread say we should give up because we are a small country and have no effect or that China are the bad guys it becomes an interesting point to look at.

Also, is it easier to convince 1 person to reduce output or 10 individual people?

Convincing a few million people in the UK or US to change will have a greater effect on the climate than convincing a few million Chinese to change at this point in time.
.

NO it WONT. because any good we will do will be out done, many times over in the next 3 days from china and other emerging markets. So it does absolutely no good at all.

Who's forcing me to recycle as much rubbish as I can? Who's forcing me to cycle on short journeys? No-one is. Who's to say a Chinese person won't take a similar view? People should stop looking at countries as a whole and consider personal responsibility.

Well you get taxed if you don't do those things, which is the same as being forced.

Say China decides to split itself into 4 separate states. Then it would no longer be a problem?

It would still be a problem, regardless how many states you split it into.

It's unfair to consider China the bad guys just because they have a larger population. They don't even emit as much as the US atm.

Atm, there not the bad guys, but they do make a hell of a lot of co2, there co2 production is skyrocketing and will do so for at least another 2 decades.

Consider this then. China are responsible for 18% of all CO2 emissions. That means the rest of the world is responsible for 82%. Do you think that if the entire rest of the world reduced emissions there would be no effect on climate change. Of course there would.

how are you going to reduce that 82%?? come on tell me, I've challenged so many people, no one can tell me how. I don't no why cars are being focused on so much, there a small percent of co2 and certainly no where near all our oil burners.

Who cares? Let them make excuses. I don't think we can accurately predict what China's response will be in the future anyway but that's a different point.

Yes we can, there power station have already been designed and are being built, DSDo you expect them to decommission power plants half way through being built?
Even if we gave them nuclear it takes a decade to build them. I'm only talking about energy supply co2 for china, let alone all the other sources.
My point is that if we do nothing, even if China came around it would be too late. I personally think we can reduce our 80% emissions and actually have an effect with or without China.

And the reason China emits so much?

Like most co2 reduce campaignist, you have the best plans at heart, but you neither no the situation or what is possible or likely. Or what is needed.
Huge population, mainly in the form of power generation.

 

[teaboy5]

More than your life time needs to worry about.

Then of course there is coal gasification and GTL products.

So you work for BP, so in what way do you know what they have in the ground?

 

[[TW]Fox]

Also, is it easier to convince 1 person to reduce output or 10 individual people?

It's easier to convince one, but why waste your time when his reduction will make no difference?

Who's forcing me to recycle as much rubbish as I can? Who's forcing me to cycle on short journeys? No-one is. Who's to say a Chinese person won't take a similar view? People should stop looking at countries as a whole and consider personal responsibility.

We must look at countries as a whole becuase individual contribution is something we can never get everyone to agree on, and individual contribution is so tiny its barely measurable.

It's unfair to consider China the bad guys just because they have a larger population. They don't even emit as much as the US atm.

But the growth is scary. If the UK were wiped off the map, China would have replaced its carbon emissions in a month of power station openings. Just power stations. Just ONE month. When you are up against that, my analogy about bailing water from a sinking ship using one bucket becomes very relevant.

Consider this then. China are responsible for 18% of all CO2 emissions. That means the rest of the world is responsible for 82%. Do you think that if the entire rest of the world reduced emissions there would be no effect on climate change. Of course there would.

But it's an unrealistic expectation - and we are not the rest of the world, we are the UK. A small island.

I]"Every time we hear a government minister talking about climate change, they seem to be drawn towards scapegoating China and its rising emissions," said Nef's policy director Andrew Simms.

"But a big factor in that rise is that China has become the major factory for the western world, so their greenhouse gas emissions are largely driven by higher levels of consumption in the west."[/I]

I quite agree, this is wrong. We need to stop feeding their economy becuase one day, it will overtake ours, they will become the major world power, there won't be enough resources for us all and we'll be quite screwed.

Where do you think your BMW is made?

Germany.

It's probably not China lol, but you get my point.

Not really.

This of course ignores the other huge issue - is C02 even a big deal?

 

[Simon]

So you work for BP, so in what way do you know what they have in the ground?

Do you think they spend billions setting up oil fields hoping that there is oil there?

Admittedly all figures are estimated though, no hard definates but siesmic equiptment is pretty good now a days.

 

[Jet]

NO it WONT. because any good we will do will be out done, many times over in the next 3 days from china and other emerging markets. So it does absolutely no good at all.

Forget you live in the UK for a second and say you live in the "rest of the world", i.e. every country but China. That means that 80% of all emissions are your fault. If everyone in the rest of the world made an effort it WOULD make a difference.

 

[teaboy5]

Do you think they spend billions setting up oil fields hoping that there is oil there?

Admittedly all figures are estimated though, no hard definates but siesmic equiptment is pretty good now a days.

Yes but, as far as i am ware SA dont allow any outsiders to know what they have in reserves at all.

So how are we to know what they have? It could be a years worth 10 years 200 years worth.

 

[Glaucus]

So you work for BP, so in what way do you know what they have in the ground?

There's plenty of oil left, enough for several generation. most "extinguished" sources still have 40% of the oil left in them, it's just uneconomical or technologically expensive to extract. We then have huge oil reserves in places that are hard to drill, with current technology. As prices rise these areas suddenly become worth while.

 

[Glaucus]

Forget you live in the UK for a second and say you live in the "rest of the world", i.e. every country but China. That means that 80% of all emissions are your fault. If everyone in the rest of the world made an effort it WOULD make a difference.

No it wouldn't for the simple fact is, how do you reduce co2, by a significant amount?

 

[teaboy5]

There's plenty of oil left, enough for several generation. most "extinguished" sources still have 40% of the oil left in them, it's just uneconomical or technologically expensive to extract. We then have huge oil reserves in places that are hard to drill, with current technology. As prices rise these areas suddenly become worth while.

Yeah but these places can't be drilled a in a year or two. It could take 5-8 years for a well to be drilled? What happens when we are waiting?

 

[Glaucus]

Yeah but these places can't be drilled a in a year or two. It could take 5-8 years for a well to be drilled? What happens when we are waiting?

we won't be waiting, there's loads of operational oil fields with plenty of oil in them.

It's not an on and off switch. Some places will be cheaper and easier to drill, as prices rise they will drill the easier stuff as it rises more they'll progressively drill harder stores.

We also have huge oil reserves in special sands. Which are starting to be come econmical to extract. Mainly due to extraction techniques becoming better and cheaper.

 

[silversurfer]

I bought a hemi and planted the xmas tree in the back yard, dbl win \o/

 

[Jet]

It's easier to convince one, but why waste your time when his reduction will make no difference?

On his own he might not make a difference but together with a few hundred million others he does.

Why do I pay taxes? My taxes alone have essentially zero effect on the running of this country. Why not let me opt out? It's obvious. Because collectively with 60 million others it turns into an awful lot of money.

I fail to see why this is not reflected in climate change. No-one on this planet will have an effect on their own. It makes no difference because collectively they do.

We must look at countries as a whole becuase individual contribution is something we can never get everyone to agree on, and individual contribution is so tiny its barely measurable.

We don't need everyone to agree, we just need everyone to do what they can. Some will invariably do more than others or more than it's possible for others to do, which is fine. Do you know what affect individuals have on climate change compared to business? Not to mention the reason businesses exist is because of individuals.

But it's an unrealistic expectation - and we are not the rest of the world, we are the UK. A small island.

It isn't unrealistic. It's is absolutely irrelevant as to which country an individual or businesses resides. I don't cycle and recycle because I live in the UK. I do it because I'm a person living on earth. This is the case for everyone. Why did Dell commit to going carbon neutral? Or BSKYB? Or Tesco? Or URBN Hotels Shanghai?

It's nothing to do with what country they're in. We are the UK but we are also the rest of the world. It all adds up.

I quite agree, this is wrong.

Woohoo, we agree on something.

Not really.

What's not to get? The reason they emit so much CO2 is because of us. We polluted the skies, it's our fault they continue to be polluted and we do nothing.

This of course ignores the other huge issue - is C02 even a big deal?

The majority of scientists seem to think so.