What to do now regarding Virgin Media?

Hi, your choice or wording is wrong really.

It's a charge I had agreed to, and would be happy to pay had I left Virgin simply because I didn't want to be with them. However, I left because they broke their own terms and conditions. This is not me changing my mind, this is Virgin breaking the agreement, and me therefore getting out of it. They have no right to charge me the £50 if they've broken the agreement.

Well, except as we've already discussed, they haven't. The clauses you think they have broken do not say what you want them to say (connectivity, for example, is connection access, not connection speed), and so far, you haven't demonstrated any breach to them so the charge would most likely stand. Furthermore, by your own description, you agreed to pay the charge on the phone (you didn't dispute it) so my wording is pretty much spot on.

There is no agreement to dispute as it is already null and void due to Virgin Media breaking it.

Except, of course, that they haven't, if you read their terms and conditions for what they actually say rather than what you want them to say.
 
I used to work for NTL (Boo, hiss!) I am now a customer. Trying to contact the call centres is a nightmare, particularly phoning disconnections. The evenings are the worse. I personally find, when the service is running, it runs well, if something goes wrong (fault, billing) this is where it all falls down. The trouble is they are staffed by youngish people who do not care less about customer service, only getting you off the phone in the quickest time. NTL (Virgin Media) staff are statted on call times (a little more complex, but essentially true). They generally stuff up the billing quite often and I have found the only way to get any money back is to talk to a supervisor or "Customer Retentions". As others have said, Virgin have not exactly broken the contract and are within their rights to charge you as per your contract. Due to all their mess ups I had to put up with over the past few years, I get my Broadband free.
 
Well, except as we've already discussed, they haven't. The clauses you think they have broken do not say what you want them to say (connectivity, for example, is connection access, not connection speed), and so far, you haven't demonstrated any breach to them so the charge would most likely stand. Furthermore, by your own description, you agreed to pay the charge on the phone (you didn't dispute it) so my wording is pretty much spot on.



Except, of course, that they haven't, if you read their terms and conditions for what they actually say rather than what you want them to say.

I'm sorry but I believe they have. Even if the 'connectivity' section doesn't apply in my case (although I did have a lot of disconnections with them too), then the section you quoted where the speeds may be less 'from time to time' does certainly apply, as my speeds were less everyday. This is by no means 'from time to time'. It was systematically repeateable, every single day, not just the one off occassional event that Virgin Media state it will be in their T&Cs.

I asked around at work and everyone agreed with me that being on hold for 40 minutes is tantemount to poor customer service. If you wanted help in a shop and you had to stand around for 40 minutes for a sales assistent to be available, I bet you'd call that poor customer service. The situation is exactly the same on the phone. So again, they broke their T&Cs.

I can't understand why you are being so defending of Virgin Media. Do you agree that it's OK for them to provide customers with 300kbps and less every single day at peak times, and do so WITHOUT advising the customer before they sign up? I had NO idea that the service would be so poor when I signed up. The fact that my service is now spot on with another provider just goes to prove that it was Virgin Media at fault somewhere.
 
I can't understand why you are being so defending of Virgin Media. Do you agree that it's OK for them to provide customers with 300kbps and less every single day at peak times, and do so WITHOUT advising the customer before they sign up? I had NO idea that the service would be so poor when I signed up. The fact that my service is now spot on with another provider just goes to prove that it was Virgin Media at fault somewhere.

I'm not defending them, I'm pointing out they haven't broken their T&C's in the way you think. That's not the same thing at all. For the record, based on what you've described the service isn't anywhere near as good as it could be, and the wait times, although not actually customer service related in the way you want them to be, are also unacceptable and will create a poor customer experience so need to be addressed.

The number of people who phone/write in to companies convinced by armchair lawyers on the internet that the company has broken something on the contract when they haven't at all is quite frightening for most companies. It's the reason why the phrase "Well I've read on the internet" will normally rapidly lose you support from the company in question, because 99% of the time over issues like this, the advice given is simply wrong, although it's often what you want to hear.

I don't work for virgin, but I do work in another industry with contracts with customers, I have to deal with disputes and customers claiming something is supported by the T&C's when it isn't on a fairly regular basis. If you really want to challenge it, do so, but if you're going to ignore me I'd also suggest you ignore the others in the thread telling you to cite unfair contract terms etc, it'll get you nowhere and make negotiation much more difficult. Your best bet, IMO, is to push for a goodwill waive of the charge, and going in like a bull in a china shop is the best way to have someone refuse to do that.
 
I'm not defending them, I'm pointing out they haven't broken their T&C's in the way you think. That's not the same thing at all. For the record, based on what you've described the service isn't anywhere near as good as it could be, and the wait times, although not actually customer service related in the way you want them to be, are also unacceptable and will create a poor customer experience so need to be addressed.

The number of people who phone/write in to companies convinced by armchair lawyers on the internet that the company has broken something on the contract when they haven't at all is quite frightening for most companies. It's the reason why the phrase "Well I've read on the internet" will normally rapidly lose you support from the company in question, because 99% of the time over issues like this, the advice given is simply wrong, although it's often what you want to hear.

I don't work for virgin, but I do work in another industry with contracts with customers, I have to deal with disputes and customers claiming something is supported by the T&C's when it isn't on a fairly regular basis. If you really want to challenge it, do so, but if you're going to ignore me I'd also suggest you ignore the others in the thread telling you to cite unfair contract terms etc, it'll get you nowhere and make negotiation much more difficult. Your best bet, IMO, is to push for a goodwill waive of the charge, and going in like a bull in a china shop is the best way to have someone refuse to do that.

Well perhaps Virgin Media should be clearer in their terms and conditions. Nowhere does it say that wait times on their holding system are excluded from their customer service guarantee, making it wide open to interpretation. Not one person I asked said to me 'hang on, wait times are different from customer service', they all said, 'that's very poor customer service'. So if all the people I asked think wait times are part and parcel of the customer service experience, then my guess is heck of a lot of other people will think that too, and Virgin Media don't inform you otherwise.

And I think my 'bull in a china shop' approach was quite justified. Even you have to agree that my internet being slow every single day completely trashed their 'it may be slow from time to time' clause. They right royally broke their own T&Cs in that instance, and I believe that entitles me to a full refund. I even told the woman on the phone when I called to cancel that the reason I was leaving was because the service was slow every single day. Her response should have been 'We're terribly sorry for failing to provide you the service you agreed to take with us. Here is your MAC number, and of course the £50 cancellation fee is waived since we couldn't adhere to the terms and conditions'. Fat chance in hell, instead their making me do all the leg work.
 
Well perhaps Virgin Media should be clearer in their terms and conditions. Nowhere does it say that wait times on their holding system are excluded from their customer service guarantee, making it wide open to interpretation. Not one person I asked said to me 'hang on, wait times are different from customer service', they all said, 'that's very poor customer service'. So if all the people I asked think wait times are part and parcel of the customer service experience, then my guess is heck of a lot of other people will think that too, and Virgin Media don't inform you otherwise.

General belief doesn't make things true, especially not in a legal sense. Perhaps it's because I've seen the other side, but wait times and customer service quality aren't related, excessive wait times are totally seperate from the service you recieve when you get through, they have different root causes and wait times can vary dramatically depending on a huge variety of factors, many outside of a companies direct control, whereas customer service quality should be consistant.

And I think my 'bull in a china shop' approach was quite justified. Even you have to agree that my internet being slow every single day completely trashed their 'it may be slow from time to time' clause. They right royally broke their own T&Cs in that instance, and I believe that entitles me to a full refund. I even told the woman on the phone when I called to cancel that the reason I was leaving was because the service was slow every single day. Her response should have been 'We're terribly sorry for failing to provide you the service you agreed to take with us. Here is your MAC number, and of course the £50 cancellation fee is waived since we couldn't adhere to the terms and conditions'. Fat chance in hell, instead their making me do all the leg work.

With regards to the connection speed, you may have a case against that clause, but that wasn't the clause you referred to in all your other posts. However, if you were getting high speed service during the day, then again, the clause may not apply, if I was working for virgin I'd be consulting the legal team for their take on the matter.

What I'm really trying to say is that, in the vast majority of cases, challenging a company based on percieved T&C breaches is rarely successful, because T&C's don't work in the way most people would like them to do, they are usually interdependant on other clauses and situations, and have all manner of get outs in them. However, that doesn't mean that most companies won't take some form of care of their customers, but it's discretionary, rather than mandatory, and whenever you get into discretionary customer service issues, you're always far more likely to get a positive result if you're polite, firm and go for an empathic approach, than demanding, trying to throw incorrect legalise at people and claiming all kinds of rights that don't actually exist.

It's important to know what rights you have, but it's also important to know what rights you don't have, and remember that in a discussion. You can rarely force a company to give you something, but they often will unless you try and force the issue.
 
Personally I think bull in a china shop is justified, if that's the term you want to use for writing asking for the money back. As for being an armchair lawyer, fine - but it's not done me any harm in working with the Consumer Action Group for the last couple of years and helping claim back well over £2 million for folks from their banks under similar circumstances ;)
 
Personally I think bull in a china shop is justified, if that's the term you want to use for writing asking for the money back. As for being an armchair lawyer, fine - but it's not done me any harm in working with the Consumer Action Group for the last couple of years and helping claim back well over £2 million for folks from their banks under similar circumstances ;)

Ah, that explains it all ;)
 
i've been with TW/VM for about 5-7years and not once had any problems what so ever, apart from overcharging phonebill but thats another matter!, ffunny enough i'm also from newcastle.... i've never heard any 1 complain about there service liek you have... maybe its just you and not VM?

Thanks
Chronic
 
i've been with TW/VM for about 5-7years and not once had any problems what so ever, apart from overcharging phonebill but thats another matter!, ffunny enough i'm also from newcastle.... i've never heard any 1 complain about there service liek you have... maybe its just you and not VM?

Thanks
Chronic

You seem to be talking about Virgin Media Cable. I'm talking about Virgin Media ADSL. Worlds apart. Get your facts straight first, bub. I'd also love to know your theory on how it's 'just me'? So you reckon I deliberately slowed my internet connection down every evening and said it was Virgin Medias fault?
 
Here's a quick update...

The bank made an indemnity claim on my behalf, and I was refunded the £50 charge. I also sent a second copy of my original letter of complaint recorded delivery. Virgin received this on 18th October. I asked them in that letter to respond to me by 26th October. They have not.

Just today I did have a letter from Virgin Media on my doormat. However, it was solely to do with the £50 charge which they now want me to pay. They say that if I don't pay it immediately, they will pass my account onto the legal department.

It's funny how when you've got a complaint they simply ignore you, yet when they want money from you, there's a letter sent first class on the doormat.

Regardless, I'm not going to waste my time chasing them.

What are the implications of a company not replying to a letter of complaint? Can I assume it is an admission of responsibility, or what?

Thanks,

Michael.
 
I notice you appear to be unable to differentiate between responding to a letter sent in and sending a letter out because you now owe them money (because you didn't bother to actually sort the problem as suggested).

As for magically deciding liability because you have set a timescale, it doesn't actually work that way...

You say you're not going to waste time chasing them, they don't have to waste much time chasing you before they hand your debt over to a DCA for a CCJ against you...
 
I notice you appear to be unable to differentiate between responding to a letter sent in and sending a letter out because you now owe them money (because you didn't bother to actually sort the problem as suggested).

Sorry I'm not quite following you hear... I am attempting to sort the problem out. I can't do anything more if Virgin Media don't respond. I intend to call the number on the letter they sent me to inform them that I will not be taking any further action until they have responded to my letters.

As for magically deciding liability because you have set a timescale, it doesn't actually work that way...

Funny that, if you read again I was actually asking what the implications of them not responding were, not stating what they are. Please read the post properly before replying.


You say you're not going to waste time chasing them, they don't have to waste much time chasing you before they hand your debt over to a DCA for a CCJ against you...

The ball is in their court to respond to my letter of complaint. Until then, I will keep my £50 thank you.
 
Well, as it's clear that you don't actually want valid advice, I don't think I'll bother any more. What you want is someone who will tell you what you want to hear, rather than anything useful.

Sorry to have tried to make you use some common sense.
 
Well, as it's clear that you don't actually want valid advice, I don't think I'll bother any more. What you want is someone who will tell you what you want to hear, rather than anything useful.

Sorry to have tried to make you use some common sense.

LOL, more like, I made a boo boo by not reading the post properly so I'm no longer taking part :p. Your 'valid advice' is to give up and pay Virgin Media £50. What *great* advice that is... Yeah it's totally fine for them to provide exceptionally poor service, break their own T&Cs and then charge me £50 for leaving. Forgive me if I can't quite fathom how you work that one out.
 
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LOL, more like, I made a boo boo by not reading the post properly so I'm no longer taking part :p. Your 'valid advice' is to give up and pay Virgin Media £50. What *great* advice that is... Yeah it's totally fine for them to provide exceptionally poor service, break their own T&Cs and then charge me £50 for leaving. Forgive me if I can't quite fathom how you work that one out.

Shows how much attention you've been paying to anything I've posted. My actual advice has been "Talk to the company and come to a compromise because they haven't actually broken their conditions in the way you think they have, but handle it correctly and you should get your £50 back".

Instead, you've clawed back the money (that by your own admission you originally agreed to pay), and are now acting surprised that they are chasing it. This will, in turn, making getting the money back more difficult because ultimately you will be relying on a goodwill gesture, and you have shown none by breaking your promises by clawing the money back.

The thing you can't seem to grasp is that Virgin have not broken their T&C's just because you say they have. We've gone through that earlier and you just ignored it because someone else said something more along the lines of what you wanted to hear. Without a provable, relevant breach of T&C's, you can't throw your weight around and expect to get what you want, you can't demand, and you can't assume you have a right. Instead, you have to negotiate, something that you've made a lot more difficult with your actions.
 
But you don.t seem to be grasping that Virgin *have* broken their T&Cs. As you pointed out to me, it says the speed may be slow from 'time to time'. Every single day is certainly not from 'time to time'!

I 'clawed' back the money because they are not entitled to it!!! I didn't once agree to pay it. I simply didn't think it'd be worth arguing with the lowly customer service rep on the phone, so I wrote a letter of complaint about it instead.
 
So your speed was slow all day every day or just in the evenings?

Phrases time 'from time to time' are there to cover the fact that pretty much every ISP has parts of the day when the load is high enough to slow things down.

You've not really gone about this in the best way as you've left yourself open to the debt collectors now.

You'd have had a far easier path if you'd let the payment stand while you sorted this out with them and gone through the small claims court if necessary.
 
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