F1 - Confused.. Did Massa let Raikkonen through?

I can read.

I don't know how long the pit was, otherwise I'd have answered previously. I was addressing point b).

Had team orders not affected Hamilton earlier in the season he'd have been world champion before this weekends GP.
 
and do you think Hamilton made his way through the field whilst everyone he passed was trying to defend their position, or is there a chance that some of those let him past unhindered? What if he ended up reaching a position where he got enough points to take the championship, even though 10 or so drivers had let him through, would that have been fair?
 
NeilFawcett said:
Personally, what I'm interested in is:-
a) Did Raikkonen pass Massa fairly (cos I missed that moment),


b) Given (a) it makes a little bit of a mockery of being work champion for Raikkonen. Where he didn't actually race well enough to win, but had to get another driver to let him over take to manage it.
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Yes he passed him "fairly". They are on the same team, they can do what they want. Whether massa slowed a little makes no difference. i didnt see Massa protesting after the race, nor the stewards.

Also , when Massa pitted Raikonen put in some blistering laptimes including the fastest middle sector of the race (so far) etc.

So Neil, im not sure what your clawing at here but eve if Massa did slow down it is still seen as "fair"


If you look into the history of Racing and In particularl F1, you will note that MANY champions have used team orders, hell one even hijacked his team mates car when his had crashed out and went on to win the race (his teammate couldnt continue due to having no car despite starting the race in said car...)

they are racing for a, the team, b the drivers world championship.

I'd rather ask the question, was it fair that Hamilton and Alonso were even challenging for the championship at all, given the teams infractions easlier in the season.
 
Chinook said:
and do you think Hamilton made his way through the field whilst everyone he passed was trying to defend their position, or is there a chance that some of those let him past unhindered?
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To be honest if people were trying to let hamilton pass they made a meal out of it - it was taking him a long time to actually make passing maneuvers.

Team tactics are fine and all part of the game. The interesting question though is, if Hamilton had moved one more place up and Alonso was thus asked to fall away to allow Hamilton to win, whether he'd actually do it or not - I don't think he would have.
 
fini said:
The interesting question though is, if Hamilton had moved one more place up and Alonso was thus asked to fall away to allow Hamilton to win, whether he'd actually do it or not - I don't think he would have.
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Now that would have been VERY interesting to see :)
 
Nickg said:
I'd rather ask the question, was it fair that Hamilton and Alonso were even challenging for the championship at all, given the teams infractions easlier in the season.
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I'm not going to debate this point (done enough of that already in motors) but have you read the full transcript of the FIA hearing?

IMO there is no evidence of systematic or institutionalised cheating at McLaren this season. Again IMO the punishment was to satisfy the media and hence the casual fans everywhere that "justice" had been done.

Finally IMO the actions of one or two rogue individuals do not implicate the whole team
 
MTA99 said:
I'm not going to debate this point (done enough of that already in motors) but have you read the full transcript of the FIA hearing?

IMO there is no evidence of systematic or institutionalised cheating at McLaren this season. Again IMO the punishment was to satisfy the media and hence the casual fans everywhere that "justice" had been done.

Finally IMO the actions of one or two rogue individuals do not implicate the whole team
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Could you link to this document please?

I've seen many people mention it, or ones like it but nobody ever seems to provide a link to it.
 
Massa's pitstop was comparable to Raikonnens. The simple fact is that when Massa pitted, Raikonnen put in some very quick laps which after his pitstop, was enough to bring him out just in front of Massa. Raikonnen has had a cracking second half of the season and scored more points than anyone else.

I really don't think Alonso would have let Hamilton past if the situation arose. I also don't think he will be staying at Mclaren either. I reckon a seat bekons for him at Renault alongside Kovalinen.

It may not be over yet either as there are fuel irregularities with the Williams and BMW Sauber teams. The stewards decided to take no action but McLaren have appealed against the decision. Quite rightly too in my mind. McLaren has been systematically singled out and attacked from all sides this year and what's good for one team is good enough for the others. Read about it here. Not the way i would like to see the championship decided but fair's fair.
 
NeilFawcett said:
LOL! No one is talking about 'Britain's new hero' winning here. If you new anything you'd realise if Raikkonen has stayed 2nd Hamilton still wouldn't have won.

Personally, what I'm interested in is:-
a) Did Raikkonen pass Massa fairly (cos I missed that moment), or did Massa let him by. ie: If Massa had continued racing at full speed would he have won instead of coming 2nd. It appears from what people are saying Massa did let Raikkonen by.
b) Given (a) it makes a little bit of a mockery of being work champion for Raikkonen. Where he didn't actually race well enough to win, but had to get another driver to let him over take to manage it.
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Your not looking or thinking aout the whole scenario. The only reason massa qualified ahead of Kimi is so that they hoped even if Kimi had a poor start a shorter fuelled massa would still be able to control the pace to keep them bunched up.

The kimi on a much heavier load would be able to leap any maccas by running longer.

There also was no need for kimi to actually race Massa. All kimi could do was hope to stay reliable and lewis and alonso had problems. Going hammer and tongs with massa was not the way to do that.

Massa was upfront as a security measure nothing more.

No matter who the champion is the team mates help out.

Frentzen did JV some favours at jerez, dc did mika loads of favours. Schumacher had team mates only as rear gunners. Irvine moved over in a similar situation as massa did at suzuka in 97.

Salo moved over for Irvine in 2000. It happens all the time when the team mate mathmatically is out of it.
 
Wasnt it reported that Alonso and the test driver de la Rosa were aware of the infractions yet did not report it? Obviously i havent read the 115 page document though

In a 15-page document, the FIA said emails showed that test driver Pedro de la Rosa and fellow-Spaniard Fernando Alonso had been aware of the Ferrari data.
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I'm guessing that this is exagerrated at least. Just its ironic Alonso now apparently saying
Fernando Alonso would be "embarrassed" if his McLaren team-mate Lewis Hamilton won the world title on appeal
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when you consider his part in withholding information in the spygate scandal.

BUT like i said i havent read the 115 page report so perhaps his part in it and indeed the crime committed by McLaren was only very minor and has been overblown and hyped up beyond proportion by the media.
 
Surfer said:
I'm guessing that this is exaggerated at least.
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Without entering into debate (there was a huge thread at the time with some very grown up discussion between DannyJo and I ;)) I appreciate that condensing 115 pages to 15 is quite a difficult job but I think the FIA could have tried harder :D
 
I know plenty about F1 thanks, and for the record, Massa's last stop was a scheduled stop for fuel + tyres, and took just over 7 seconds, if 5live got it right, was listening to that while ITV missed every key moment of the race. Raikkonen was setting very quick laps throughout the race, and was not far behind until the first round of pit stops. Even if it was "staged" as some may suggest, would Massa risk his job in not helping his team-mate, and scuppering and chances he would have in future seasons?
 
The fact of the matter is that Massa's second pit stop was almost an identical time to Kimi's the second time around... 0.8 seconds difference longer in fact.

Massa pitted earlier than Raikkonen and of course needed three laps more fuel than Kimi to finish the race.

Now to anyone that can call eight tenths of a second an deliberate switch of cars from Ferrari - you must be clutching at straws, or your insane... one or the other.

If Hamilton would have won, with Alonso leading most of the race and Hamilton took him in the pit stops - I doubt most of this conspiracy theory would have evolved to be honest.

Well done Kimi though, fantastic drive for the second part of the season. Took him a while to adapt to the Ferrari and the Bridgestone tyres but a brilliant acheivement nonetheless.
 
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