2007 Brazillian GP - Race 17/17

dannyjo22 said:
Nice post up until that bit:D

I'm only in my 30's yet even if he hadve won the title it wouldnt even make the top 20 sporting achievements of my life.

95% of the achievement is down to the car. 95% of the achievement is down to a collective team of geniuses in the factories.

Many many other sports rely on the individual or team talents with no advantage over an opponent/team that they all cant have or use.
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Sorry thats not true at all

Yes both the factory workers and the race mechanics deserve a lot of credit etc - but its also true that each driver puts a huge amount into each race, its not just a case of turning up and getting in the car etc.

I very much doubt many people in the world for instance would cope with racing around a track in such a downpour that you can hardly see your hands on the steeringwheel - yet he won the race.

They arent god's or anything - but they deserve credit (apart from anything else severe crashes still happen no matter how safe the sport gets)
 
dannyjo22 said:
Nice post up until that bit:D

I'm only in my 30's yet even if he hadve won the title it wouldnt even make the top 20 sporting achievements of my life.

95% of the achievement is down to the car. 95% of the achievement is down to a collective team of geniuses in the factories.

Many many other sports rely on the individual or team talents with no advantage over an opponent/team that they all cant have or use.
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Load of rubbish, although some teams have advantage/disadvantage with there cars (that's the nature of the sport and should never be removed). A good driver is essential, not only can they tell the mechanics how to set the car up, they greatly help development with feedback. On top of that, there able to extract 99% of the power out of the car for 2hr races. It's everyones achievement but it's not 95% the teams.
 
AcidHell2 said:
Load of rubbish, although some teams have advantage/disadvantage with there cars (that's the nature of the sport and should never be removed). A good driver is essential, not only can they tell the mechanics how to set the car up, they greatly help development with feedback. On top of that, there able to extract 99% of the power out of the car for 2hr races. It's everyones achievement but it's not 95% the teams.
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I doubt the gap between the top 10 drivers is anywhere near what people think it is. You are not going to win anything without being in the best teams. Stick hamilton in a honda or a BMW and he wouldnt have won a race this year.

They always used to say that MS could win in a shopping trolley. The one year his car wasn't up to snuff he won the race at indy with 6 cars and he was in a ferrari.

My point was if someone think's that Hamilton nearly pulled off the sporting achievement of their lifetime then they havent watched much sport.

A candian hockey player once scoffed when JV won sports person of the year that he was pretty upset to be beaten by a machine.

The reality is know one here knows for sure if Lewis is even better than say Jenson Button or Kimi. The machines are so varied on a race by race basis. There are so many non driver variables that I dont see it as that huge a sporting achievement.

Yet when Michael Johnson ran the 400 metres and 200m in world record times with the ability for everyone to compete equally or tiger woods winning a major or Federa yet again winning wimbledon. They are the great sporting achievements of a generation. Hell there isn't a single person here that couldn't get chance to beat them if they have the talent.

Comapring that to a guy driving the fastest car on the grid doesn't really compare imho.

As for the driver telling the mechanics how to set the car. Thats a joke. The driver just tells the engineer how the car is behaving and handling. The mechanics come up with the reasons and set ups to overcome those problems.



If he goes to a team where his team mate can qualify 10th and his wins the title, then that will be something ;)
 
doesn't that depend on the team mate

Allegedly Schumi won in the second best car when at beneton, but I didn't buy that.
 
FrankJH said:
Sorry thats not true at all

Yes both the factory workers and the race mechanics deserve a lot of credit etc - but its also true that each driver puts a huge amount into each race, its not just a case of turning up and getting in the car etc.

I very much doubt many people in the world for instance would cope with racing around a track in such a downpour that you can hardly see your hands on the steeringwheel - yet he won the race.

They arent god's or anything - but they deserve credit (apart from anything else severe crashes still happen no matter how safe the sport gets)
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Whoopee do driving in the wet with traction control, take it off and see how half of them do in the wet. ;)

If its not true in your eyes that it's not 95% the car then how is it that one year JV wins the title and the very next he's racing for 5th and 6th. Yet in a compete reversal of fortunes Hakkinen goes from winning the last race of the year to world champion.

If its not just a case of turning up and getting in the car then perhaps you can explain just how raikonen has won a championship. Thats exactly what he does. He has no interest in whats happening to the car or how it even gets to the circuit as a race car. He just gets in and drives.

Last year he didnt win a race, this year he's world champion.

95% car.
 
but if you stuck de la rosa in for the season would he have done as well?

Surely teams would save a lot of money on drivers if they could?
 
dannyjo22 said:
As for the driver telling the mechanics how to set the car. Thats a joke. The driver just tells the engineer how the car is behaving and handling. The mechanics come up with the reasons and set ups to overcome those problems.
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Sorry man, I have to disagree on this point. If you are a driver who lacks communication skills and struggles to explain correctly to his mechanics what the car is doing in certain corners then you will struggle to get an optimum set-up. Meanwhile if your team mate, in the same car, is good at setting the car up, he will be end up having a better car for the race/qualifying and be faster. We saw the difference that set-ups make, when Hamilton seemed to be off Alonso's pace for 2 races. Alonso just seemed to be 0.2s/lap faster. It was later explained by Hamilton himself, that he moved his set-up away from Alonso's and Alonso had the right set-up while Hamilton didnt.

After learning from his mistake, in the following races, Hamilton tended to keep his set-up very similar to Alonso's.

The set-up of the car can make a difference. 0.2s/lap is a significant margin, if you lose that much time over a 50 lap race.

Senna was reknowned for going into great detail to explain (to his mechanics) what his car was doing in corners. He was very good at setting up his car. This showed, especially with his sensational qualifying speed.


dannyjo22 said:
If he goes to a team where his team mate can qualify 10th and his wins the title, then that will be something ;)
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When Schumacher was at Benetton, he was winning the title and generally his team mate would qualify around 6th (not 10th, but not far off).
 
Slam62 said:
but if you stuck de la rosa in for the season would he have done as well?

Surely teams would save a lot of money on drivers if they could?
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No but thats the 5% i'm talking about ;)

There's just too many factors to say for sure how he would do. a lot of luck is involved. Also Mclaren and ferrari are fairly lucky this year in the gap to the other teams. Even if Pedro was down on Lewis laptime he still wouldve scored almost the podiums and points lewis did if he stayed reliable. The ferrari's were having problems and the rest no where near.

Podiums were not that great a push. Most of the time there wasnt even the threat from other cars. I wanna see a poor mclaren again to see how many wins he gets.
 
sunama said:
Sorry man, I have to disagree on this point. If you are a driver who lacks communication skills and struggles to explain correctly to his mechanics what the car is doing in certain corners then you will struggle to get an optimum set-up. .
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I agree they offer feed back on how the cars handling, which is what I said. Some drivers have better feel than others. What was said was the driver tells the mechanics how to set the car up. That I dont believe. They tell the mechanics how the car is handling and the engineer and mechanics find the solutions NOT the driver. The driver then gives feedback on the changes.

I've listened to senna give feedback on a lap and he offered nothing more than feedback on grip, power and balance. Its the mechanics job to then find solutions to the problem.

sunama said:
When Schumacher was at Benetton, he was winning the title and generally his team mate would qualify around 6th (not 10th, but not far off).
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That means little to me, MS has never had a team mate that has raced him equally. Whether they knew it or not they weren't getting equally equipment. You only have to hear Flavs comments on how Alonso shouldve got preferential treatment at mclaren to see a pattern.

The one time MS couldve raced a team mate equally was when kimi joined. He bottled it and quit. ;) There was not a way in hell he would have gone toe to toe with no team orders against a raikkonen, hakkinen or a villeneuve.

Fair play he played the politics game better than even prost.
 
nikebee said:
That said, our source remains adamant, and you would not believe who it was that told him about Hamilton's 'error'.

Fernando Alonso? :p
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It was hamilton himself.

Kudos to hamilton he didnt really need to say anything because the world would believe Ron always tells the truth :D

Change of heart from Ron there, he didnt mind slagging off DC even though he had done nothing wrong :p
 
sunama said:
I was totally unaware of this. I thought it was MS's decision and his alone, to retire when he did.
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It was Ms's decision

But it also suited Ferrari so they could prove it can cheat itself into one or two titles without paying huge amounts for one driver
 
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Ay Carumba!

Engine Development Frozen for 10 Years

So what happens when someone wants to supply engines for F1 in five years time? Do they get to poach all the good staff and build an engine based on everyone else's lessons learned that they can't implement?

What encouragement is there for manufacturers to stick about for 10 years? If their engine is naff they'll leave, simple as.
 
sunama said:
But they have ended up forking out almost as much on Raikonnen :confused:
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Kimi doesnt get a third of what they used to pay MS.

MS was stalling, he didnt want to race kimi in the team and wasn't making a decision about quitting or not. Certain members of the team had enough of being left hanging and went for Kimi.

That upset other members of the team and soem went on gardening leave.

The signing of kimi forced MS hand.

I must say this year he's hardly been mentioned and not missed one bit.
 
rpstewart said:
Ay Carumba!

Engine Development Frozen for 10 Years

So what happens when someone wants to supply engines for F1 in five years time? Do they get to poach all the good staff and build an engine based on everyone else's lessons learned that they can't implement?

What encouragement is there for manufacturers to stick about for 10 years? If their engine is naff they'll leave, simple as.
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F1 has become a complete and pointless waste of time. How can this be the pinancle. How is lewis hamilton winning a title all that great when those around him are stuck with naff engines for 10 years.

Unless your engine is all powerfull in 2008 the team is stuffed. If I was a big manufacturer and my engine ended up 20 or 30 bhp down in 2009 with no chance of developement for 10 years I'd spend my money racing elsewhere.

What a joke.
 
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