Give me Amp suggestions...

Bes

Bes

Bes

Soldato
Joined
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Melbourne
Hi

I currently have an Audiolab 8000S hooked up to a pair of JMLab 816s speakers and a heavily modified Marantz CD63.

Now, whilst the detail in CDs is fantastic, and the depth and 'quickness' of the speakers is great (I guess you could say "technically" the sound is excellent), I actually think my music sounds more exciting on my Sony NWA3000 MP3 player and Shure EC1 headphones! It is just more 'toe- tapping' and enjoyable with a noticeably richer mid- range- I guess now it just sounds a little 'hollow'.

I am guessing I need to do something at the amplification stage.

What would be the best way forward- would you think partnering the 8000S with a poweramp would be a good option?

Would replacing the amp with something that is less sonically 'flat' be better? (given my speakers lean towards airiness and detail over richness- think of them as a more refined, better sounding version of the Monitor Audio RS6s in terms of sonic performance and the 'kind' of sound they produce)

I am sure a few people here have/ had 8000S & P setups or similar, so please let me know what you think :)

I know I should do some auditions, but when I am looking second hand, it's not easy :)

Thanks
 
Being a Audiolab owner, I know what you have is revealing and very detailed. However what you've described that lower end gear is usually more mid-range pronunced. DAC/Q/SX/SX/Ruark Etudes here. Very unforgiving of poorly recorded albums. Adding a second poweramp makes it slightly more detailed with more control, but not warmer.

You could buy a second system more "warmer" ie Arcam or NAD.
 
As you know, hifi is affected by every part of the chain, as an experiment have you tried hooking your mp3 player to the amp and speakers, rather than the headphones.

Its an interesting experiment, just to see if it gets you foot tapping, or if even with a source you know gets your foot going becomes flat and lifeless when run on the audiolab system.

As Badbob already said, adding a P will give you more of the same. Yes its a good improvement, I used to run an S+P combo, driving Mission 753's. I now run An Tag AV32R (Think as Audiolab digital AV preamp), combined with Audiolab 8000M's and its more of the same.. If you like audiolab its great.. but the more you add the more it sounds 'better' but the 'same' if that makes any sense.

I dont know your speakers, but the amp really is detailed and revealing. If your source, and speakers are similar, then it could easily just be too much.

I listened to a large number of different speakers, and my personal favorites for an audiolab system were Misson and Ruark. Bought Mission 753f's as I felt they had the edge on deep but controlled bass, and I have a fairly large sitting room.

In many reviews, your speakers are described as bright and lean, on its own this isnt necessarily a bad thing, but combined with the analytical nature of audiolab amps, and your modded CD player its probably not a match made in heaven :(.
 
My personal view is that you need to look at your source first. Take your CDP into a number of dealers and see how it compares.
 
Though I would always say source first as well, I can't help thinking the problem will never be fixed as long as Audiolab amps are involved. They are widely accepted as being "technical" grey and sterile sounding amps. The early ones were built very well and measure well, and "best buy" in "What Hi-Fi" for years !! :( ....... they never did it for me, musical... no !

JMlab speakers, Only heard some of the Focal range, 1027be and Utopia (14K ones) But they had a very dry, lean "hollow" mid range. So I can imagine it's a house sound they have. I heard these with Naim amps, which for me was not a good match, until the dealer replaced all the cables with Non Naim items, then it all came together!... and stopped sounding like a classic Naim system !!!....

Demo some pre-powers, with the 816's, at the same time try some new CDP's, against your CD63.....

But keep doing what your are doing, and that's judging by what makes your foot tap !!!.........
 
I would also agree that your never going to get away from that clinical sound, I used to have a cyrus III amp and it was exactly the same, in the end I found the music just had no soul, its weird, it would pick up every little detail but it just wouldnt get the toe tapping.

I sold my Cyrus III in the end and got a Roksan Kandy mkIII, and it totally transformed my system, still nice and detailed but with much more weight and solidity, it really bangs out the music with verve, i love it. Im sure many other reccomendations will be made to you, various pre power combanations etc, it all depends whats floats your boat. I just wanted a one box solution.

I know a lot of people on here will tell you to change your CD player, but I just dont think that as long as you have that amp you will get away from that style of presentation, sure you may alter it slightly, but that dryness will always be there. after all the CD63 is quite a warm sounding player anyway. I have a modded Ki Sig, and I tested it back to back woth a Musical Fidelty A5 CDP, a very highly rated spinner worth 1.5k, and yes while it sounded slighter more open and airy, and a bit more detailed it didnt transform the sound like swapping the amp did.

If it was my money I would take my gear down to a decent Hi-Fi shop and get him to test different components, you will instntly be able to tell what the problem component is then. my money is defo on the amp.
 
So, Mr Sukebe suggest's source, I (as I dont find audiolab amps sterile... I like Cyrus amps too) feel its a bad match between the amp and speakers, and would probably change the speakers, and 9 and Kid would change the amp...

So you have a full range of possibilities, any of which could work. I would have thought the speakers would give the most dramatic difference.
 
Speakers make the biggest difference in presentation, and the least in musicality and making the foot tap IMO.... If the electronics are not providing the tune, then no speaker will rescue the situation...
Would agree speaker to amp matching is the issue. Which to change ?
I tend to think if you find a speaker who's presentation you like, stick with it, and work at getting the best from it... They normally just keep getting better and better as you upgrade the electronics, and fine tune the system.
 
Thanks for the input everyone...

I do like the 816s and technically they are a very good speaker (especially for the amount I paid)- very quick and detailed and offering great depth- and I was initally attracted to them by the way they sound, so am keen to try and keep them as part of my setup.

I think the issue (as some of you have been saying) is partly down to the source- in the sense that it has now become very overly- analytical and detailed. However, plugging in my NWA-3000 does not improve things really (Apart from losing a lot of detail and 'depth' as you would expect- so this suggests to me we can take the CDP out of the equasion- which leaves us with the amp and the speakers.

Owing to 9designs2's comments, and my own thoughts, I think I need to change something at the amplification stage. To me, 'more of the same' (i.e. adding the P to the 8000S) would not really help matters, and as the Audiolab stuff is flat and not 'warm' enough for the rest of the setup. This is where I need to change something. Luckily, I paid just £200 for the 8000S, so should be able to get this back on reselling it without too much trouble. Obviously I am going to demo before I change anything, but any suggestions for any alterntives I should try out?

Thanks
 
Well, if you dont like how the Audiolab drives your speakers, im guessing the Cyrus range wont please you either, and you certainly wont like Tag's (second hand only)

Arcam, and Musical fidelity both have a much 'warmer' sound, which might suit your speakers better. All depends on your budget really. You could just pop down to a 'good' hifi shop, and get some demos. Nothing really beats your own ears judgement.

My local hifi shop even does 'at home' demo's if your not convinced by their own demo room. Mind you if your like me... If I take up a hifi shops time and experience, I feel guilty to buy it online and save a few quid. Only thing I didnt buy from the local store is my Tag Processor, as they stopped dealing with Tag.

I'd definalty look at the second hand market if you dont want to budget for a good new amp.
 
Thanks.

I have heard good things about MF stuff (but it is pretty expensive, no?), and would like to try and find somewhere I can demo. I've not auditioned any Arcam before either, so will certainly keep my eyes peeled for any of the dealers in the Bristol/ Bath area reselling these brands s/h when I get back to England!

Any other suggestions/ comments also welcome :)
 
defo demo the roksan Kandy III as well, I got rid of my Cyrus III becuase it was to lean, loving the Kandy, cost me around £250 second hand
 
badbob said:
Roksan Kandy are incredibly harsh, this is from Audiolab owner.
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Strange, I would not class any Roksan amp i have heard as harsh in the slightest, sure it has plenty of detail but its far from the tiring sound that ny Cyrus III viered towards at times, and they are paired with a quite lively set of speakers, Monitor Audio GS10's.

Each to their own I guess, one mans detailed is another mans shrill.

Im sure the OP local dealer with have a Kandy III to listen to, give it a blast, I love the energetic way it slams out music.
 
Bes said:
Thanks.

I have heard good things about MF stuff (but it is pretty expensive, no?), and would like to try and find somewhere I can demo. I've not auditioned any Arcam before either, so will certainly keep my eyes peeled for any of the dealers in the Bristol/ Bath area reselling these brands s/h when I get back to England!

Any other suggestions/ comments also welcome :)
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MF gear ranges from mid level (cheaper than the 8000S would have been) to fairly exotic. But across their range they do keep their family sound.

There is always the second hand market, but anytime I have auditioned equipment in a shop, I've always accepted the high street price, because the shop is providing not just the hardware, but the audition service. I've spend hours in my local hifi shop listening to music, so the least I can do is buy from them :).
 
<---- Bit hard when I'm here (i.e. look at my location) :D

I'm back in the UK soonish though, so will do- probably won't have too much time for demoing though, so need to make sure I go for the stuff that might work! ;)
 
See also my location ;)

Well the Internet forums are full of people telling what you should buy, and full of people regularly "upgrading" because they are not satisfied ! You think the two might be linked !!!! ;)

So for what it's worth, I personally can't get on with the NAIM house sound, tried a few times, as I wanted a small "classic" Naim set-up in a second room, but just can't live with the stuff !
For me it has forward, hard, lean and sometimes aggressive sound. For sure it separates out all the instruments and sounds, like few other systems. To me that is double edge sword, impressive on first hearing, but becomes fatiguing after time. Plus the musicians don't sound like they are playing together anymore. For me this makes Naim loose on tune, and foot tapping abilities. It is left to the listener to reassemble all the parts in your head to make the full sound again. For me it is impressive HiFi and poor music !... You find Naimies start buying music, because it suits there system !!!!
This is why I went down the LINN route, Naim gave me a 5 musicians to listen too, Linn gave me a band playing a song, where I could hear 5 musicians playing !! .....

It wasn't until the Naim rep hooked up the then new 555 CD player (14K :eek:) did it solve the "problem", and start to sound like my Linn set-up !!

So I'd find some dealers with second hand stock, so you can demo it, and I would recommend buying from them..... There is normally plenty of used Linn stock about.
 
9designs2 said:
See also my location ;)

Well the Internet forums are full of people telling what you should buy, and full of people regularly "upgrading" because they are not satisfied ! You think the two might be linked !!!! ;)

So for what it's worth, I personally can't get on with the NAIM house sound, tried a few times, as I wanted a small "classic" Naim set-up in a second room, but just can't live with the stuff !
For me it has forward, hard, lean and sometimes aggressive sound. For sure it separates out all the instruments and sounds, like few other systems. To me that is double edge sword, impressive on first hearing, but becomes fatiguing after time. Plus the musicians don't sound like they are playing together anymore. For me this makes Naim loose on tune, and foot tapping abilities. It is left to the listener to reassemble all the parts in your head to make the full sound again. For me it is impressive HiFi and poor music !... You find Naimies start buying music, because it suits there system !!!!
This is why I went down the LINN route, Naim gave me a 5 musicians to listen too, Linn gave me a band playing a song, where I could hear 5 musicians playing !! .....

It wasn't until the Naim rep hooked up the then new 555 CD player (14K :eek:) did it solve the "problem", and start to sound like my Linn set-up !!

So I'd find some dealers with second hand stock, so you can demo it, and I would recommend buying from them..... There is normally plenty of used Linn stock about.
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From your description, I probably wouldn't like Naim at all then!

I always imagined Linn stuff to be uber expensive- even second hand... is this not so? I'll definatley be on the lookout for some :)
 
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