CH4 just finished (Britz)

[andyp]

I've recorded it and I'm looking forward to seeing it this weekend.

I'm not sure how you can say that it's uninformed as I'm sure the director had loads of researchers working on the project and just because it doesn't conform to your view-point it doesn't make it wrong. As far as I'm aware the programme doesn't condone extremism but simply demonstrates that some of the ways we deal with extremism are counter-productive.

The director did indeed have lots of researchers working on his project, which, muchos surprise, he also wrote, quite obviously to his own very biased agenda (which also gives raise to the question, how can anyone question my bias, if indeed I have any?).

However, it appears none of his researchers have a clue how the intelligence and security services/networks work in the western world, rendering the majority of the first episode and parts of the second episode ineffective and therefore lacking any real punch or viability as a piece of film-making.

As for the rest of it - we've heard it all before I'm afraid. Raking over old material and jazzing it up into some snazzily-shot, stereotypically-cast controversy-fest doesn't tackle any real issues.

 

[Vegeta]

I love how everyone is saying the way the intelligence and security services shown is inaccurate, but what really do you all know? Maybe you'd like to tell us where they've gone wrong rather than just say it's bad with no real logic behind your views.

And it's preety naive to think someone will go blown up a train after watching this one show, the more liekly reason is he/she has been beaten up a zillion times going to the mosque wearing their hats or going to do their groceries.

 

[[DOD]Asprilla]

The director did indeed have lots of researchers working on his project, which, muchos surprise, he also wrote, quite obviously to his own very biased agenda (which also gives raise to the question, how can anyone question my bias, if indeed I have any?).

Yeah, I didn't mean for it to come out as questioning your bias, it's just your initial statement sounded like one the usual dismissive-because-it differs-from-my-opinion statements that are regularly uttered on this board.

However, it appears none of his researchers have a clue how the intelligence and security services/networks work in the western world

Difficult to comment because I've not seen it, but since the director also made The Government Inspector I know that he's had a lot of access to the Intelligence Services and I know that he has at least a passing acquaintance with someone I know in the Intelligence Services. Mind, it's also equally possible that he chose to ignore that knowledge for story / narrative reasons.

 

[colinuk]

Not seen the show, but i can guess it would be slighty one sided view, then again, arnt they always leaning to one side or the other?

The taking of life should be a no no, no matter what so called god you think you have to bow down to. If you want to fight, go pick on the army instead of people travelling on a bus to work, or dont they want to fight people willing to fight back?

Still, i will go watch the show, then post my feelings on it.

 

[Superficial]

I will, though just because I've not seen it yet that doesn't exclude me from having an opinion. I was just wondering how someone can label it as 'misinformed claptrap' without showing where the errors and mistakes are.



If you are doing a double hander, showing both sides of the same coin, then surely to have to show how both sides justify their actions?

It will be interesting to see if I still hold the same opinion once I've watched it though.

In my honest opinion you commenting on something you have not seen is absolutely ridiculous.

The final moments of the program (ergo the conclusion - you will know what I mean when you actually see it) did nothing to show both sides of the argument. it was a suicide bombers justification video and a series of textual quotes - all sympathising with the causes of terrorism.

that is what the viewers were left with.

 

[Vegeta]

I think the work has to be a bit biased to even things out, you never hear about the terrorists side in the media do we? I think the end was just to put a fear into us and maybe show us how this can be avoided.

 

[andyp]

I love how everyone is saying the way the intelligence and security services shown is inaccurate, but what really do you all know? Maybe you'd like to tell us where they've gone wrong rather than just say it's bad with no real logic behind your views.

And it's preety naive to think someone will go blown up a train after watching this one show, the more liekly reason is he/she has been beaten up a zillion times going to the mosque wearing their hats or going to do their groceries.

If all of that is aimed at me, I'm afraid you're misunderstanding me.

I've never said someone or some people will blow anything up as a result of watching the programme. I've known, and know, quite a lot of Muslims professionally and personally, and when it comes to fundamentalism it runs far far deeper than watching telly and getting silly ideas. The idea of television influencing people is a very western idea - the hidden irony of Britz maybe? Anyone who says they think the programme is promoting extremism or will cause or contribute to more attacks doesn't understand the problem as well as they could.

There's two really obvious no-brainers re. your first paragraph.

Nas would have been picked up at Manchester or at least followed into Pakistan. No way would she have cleared customs, passport control and watch lists at BOTH ends - especially given the cicrumstances around Sabia's arrest.

Sohail would have been picked up on his way down from Leeds Bradford to London.

*edit... I'm trying to do this without giving too much away about the programme :/

 

[Meridian]

It looks like (as usual) many of the people here can't tell the difference between "explain" and "justify".



M

 

[Vegeta]

I don't understand why Nas would have been picked up, she was never suspected of anything. And why would Sohail have been picked up, do you mean when he was arrested when driving in his terrorist friends car?
I think they're preety tiny things to focus on, if they were picked up where would the story have gone? Since when has drama loosely based on fact ever been 100% accurate, things like that are tiny.

Thanks for the reply andyp but it was more aimed at thecrow with one of his earlier comments about turning extremists into full blown killers.

 

[[DOD]Asprilla]

In my honest opinion you commenting on something you have not seen is absolutely ridiculous.

The final moments of the program (ergo the conclusion - you will know what I mean when you actually see it) did nothing to show both sides of the argument. it was a suicide bombers justification video and a series of textual quotes - all sympathising with the causes of terrorism.

that is what the viewers were left with.

I've made it quite clear that I've not seen it, but I have been looking forward to it for a while. Me commenting on it is not ridiculous, it's just difficult. All i'm trying to do is understand what people thought was wrong with it as in the earlier posts no-one was explaining.

 

[LordSplodge]

It was "OK" as a drama but the ending where she said we are all at fault because we voted Labour went a bit too far. Seriously if some Muslims think that way then they deserve to be either shot or kicked out of the country.

The war in iraq is not a war on bloody Islam it is simply a misguided war started by the Americans and the sheep-like British Government followed along like good little pets...

 

[andyp]

I don't understand why Nas would have been picked up, she was never suspected of anything. And why would Sohail have been picked up, do you mean when he was arrested when driving in his terrorist friends car?

On the list of the people Sabia couldn't meet was Nas... the sister of a newly-employed MI5 desk jockey. It's a very reasonable bet you don't have to be suspected of a thing to be placed on a watch list - associations are more than enough give Sabia's brother's status.

Sohail is only flying a desk and he hasn't been doing it for very long - why would he be running up and down the country on his own, without any direct orders, making entry into a house that has been under close surveillance and it's occupant under mobile? Very very far fetched if you ask me.

 

[Vegeta]

I've made it quite clear that I've not seen it, but I have been looking forward to it for a while. Me commenting on it is not ridiculous, it's just difficult. All i'm trying to do is understand what people thought was wrong with it as in the earlier posts no-one was explaining.

My point exactly, fair enough you think it's bad but just saying the intelligence is rubbish without mentioning anything is claptrap itself, andyp gave me a couple of instances but they're tiny hardly likely to ruin it for me or anyone.

 

[Vegeta]

On the list of the people Sabia couldn't meet was Nas... the sister of a newly-employed MI5 desk jockey. It's a very reasonable bet you don't have to be suspected of a thing to be placed on a watch list - associations are more than enough give Sabia's brother's status.

Sohail is only flying a desk and he hasn't been doing it for very long - why would he be running up and down the country on his own, without any direct orders, making entry into a house that has been under close surveillance and it's occupant under mobile? Very very far fetched if you ask me.

Maybe that list was just a lsit Sabia could not talk to or visit, who knows if all the people on the list are suspected also, as for Sohail it was shown he was breaking the rules as it were, the surveillance of the building stopped prior to him being there therefore how would they have intercepted him?

 

[andyp]

It was "OK" as a drama but the ending where she said we are all at fault because we voted Labour went a bit too far. Seriously if some Muslims think that way then they deserve to be either shot or kicked out of the country.

This is what annoyed me - he may as well have filmed ten seconds of someone holding a banner saying "I hate this Labour government", handed that in to Channel 4 and saved us all the bother and time. A Tory or Lib Dem government aren't going to change the way the services work - it's in their best interests to protect them.

Writing to your own agenda is very easy. I haven't seen The Government Inspector but I have a feeling it will be pretty much more of the same.

 

[Vegeta]

It was "OK" as a drama but the ending where she said we are all at fault because we voted Labour went a bit too far. Seriously if some Muslims think that way then they deserve to be either shot or kicked out of the country.

The war in iraq is not a war on bloody Islam it is simply a misguided war started by the Americans and the sheep-like British Government followed along like good little pets...

Shot dead or kicked out the country lol, would you say the same for everyone who has something to say about the labour government or just the muslims?

 

[andyp]

Maybe that list was just a lsit Sabia could not talk to or visit, who knows if all the people on the list are suspected also, as for Sohail it was shown he was breaking the rules as it were, the surveillance of the building stopped prior to him being there therefore how would they have intercepted him?

You're giving me maybe's - I'm giving you decent solid examples of two instances which in the real world would have stopped events escalating to the scale they did at the end of the programme.

Just out of interest, give me a ball-park figure as to how many definite, rock solid 'terrorist attacks' you think have been stopped in this country since September 11th 2001?

 

[Vegeta]

You're giving me maybe's - I'm giving you decent solid examples of two instances which in the real world would have stopped events escalating to the scale they did at the end of the programme.

Just out of interest, give me a ball-park figure as to how many definite, rock solid 'terrorist attacks' you think have been stopped in this country since September 11th 2001?

How would I know that, how would you know that for certain, and what does that have todo with this?

But if I was to hazzard a guess, maybe a dozen or is that too many?

 

[andyp]

How would I know that, how would you know that for certain, and what does that have todo with this?

But if I was to hazzard a guess, maybe a dozen or is that too many?

I don't know - is it too many?

That's my point. I'd like to bet there's a majority of people in central government that don't know either.

It has a lot to do with the programme. Put simply - it was a very far-fetched story with quite a lot of factual inaccuracies put together to feed the director's agenda which, I'm sure if he put his mind to it, could be expressed much more pertinently and with more resonance than the re-hash of old, tired ideas we've had over the last couple of nights.