Water Cooling & Temps

Soldato
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Hi, I've just embarked on water cooling my system and as the objective was to have a quieter system I'm very pleased with those results. At the moment I have my two graphic cards within the loop, then then pipes go to the rad then onto the CPU. However I think this is restricting my ability to OC the CPU as when I try to get to 3.6ghz I find my CPU temps are hitting over 80c. Thus I'm considering taking the two graphic card out of the loop and cooling them separately. Has anyone done this before, how would I go about this and what do I need to purchase?
Many thanks...
ChrisC
 
my cpu was hitting 72 and shutting itself down...in the end i sold it because i couldnt play any games ! 2 minutes into the game it would shut down !
 
Which radiator do you have?

Hi and thanks for your reply, I have the Swiftech H20-220 Apex Ultra Watercooling Kit which has the MCR220 Radiator with it, I also have two Swiftech MCW60R VGA Waterblocks.
Sorry I should have put this information in...
Chris
 
ideally you want another radiator with a seperate loop for the gfx cards as that's a lot of wattage to be dissipated out of a single 120.2 radiator.

However, I don't think it would account for such high temps. It sounds to me like the block isn't contacting the cpu correctly. Try reseating it.
 
Well tbh an overclocked quad and two HD2900Pro's will be too much for the MCR220. You'd need to be looking at atleast a Thermochill PA120.2 for doing that, maybe even a PA120.3.
 
I can't answer your post ... will soon embark on my first WC project, but it does bring up a question.
You say:

At the moment I have my two graphic cards within the loop, then then pipes go to the rad then onto the CPU.

Wouldnt having the rad before the CPU be the problem ?
I would imagine it should be after all the blocks, at least thats How I plan on doing mine ... Like I say I don't know for certain but I imagine it wont help.
 
Nope no issues having the rad before the CPU (the theory is that the water is coolest coming straight from the rad, and even having the pump straight before the CPU adds a little heat).

The loop can be in any order providing the pump is straight after the res. Basically whichever order is easiest for your case and with as little tubing as possible.
 
Hi, the idea is too cool the water after the gfx cards before it hits the CPU, at least that's how swiftech say how to do it...
Chris
 
Hi, possibly the bigger rad might work, don't think lapping the CPU will make more than a few degrees of difference as all my cores are within 2c of each other.
Anyway, thanks for all of your suggestions..
ChrisC
 
Hmm .. but then the water coming from the CPU isnt being cooled and going straight into the res ?

I am not arguing, just trying to fully understand the system as its a new venture for me too.
I have been told (and trust the source) that the water temp stays fairly constant throughout a chain once its all up and running.

Chriscatt can try it the other way and see if it helps, it costs nothing at least :)
 
Well in theory surely the water coming from a heat source (such as a CPU or a GPU) will be warmer than the water coming from a cooling source (the rad).

But as I mentioned, the loop can be in any order as long as the res is before the pump (it's easier to bleed and means that the pump will always be sucking water rather than trapped air from any of the other components).
 
Hmm .. but then the water coming from the CPU isnt being cooled and going straight into the res ?

I am not arguing, just trying to fully understand the system as its a new venture for me too.
I have been told (and trust the source) that the water temp stays fairly constant throughout a chain once its all up and running.

Chriscatt can try it the other way and see if it helps, it costs nothing at least :)

Hi, wel all I know is that both my gfx coards run at about 54c at full chat, if that was going directly into my CPU then I think I'd have problems. As it is the rad gets very warm at the end opposite to the barbs, however that makes me think it is doing it's job...
ChrisC
 
A seperate loop for 2 GFX cards is best. A PA120.1 will be enough for them.

Loop order really makes very little difference. 0.5c at most. I got this data directly from a manufacturer. As said above; the loop temperature will find an equilibrium.
 
Hi, wel all I know is that both my gfx coards run at about 54c at full chat, if that was going directly into my CPU then I think I'd have problems.
But you do have problems if the cpu is already at 80 :)
The cards may be at 54 ... doesn't mean the water is, thats flowing around and so dissapating the heat.

Have you checked the CPU block is seated well and making good contact ?
or maybe there is some restriction in the cpu block (trapped air, kink, bit of debris etc).
It just seems odd that the GPUs are cooling fine but the CPU isn't, surely if the rad wasnt up to the task everything would be running warmer , and 54 under load for 2 2900's sounds decent to me.
 
Well in theory surely the water coming from a heat source (such as a CPU or a GPU) will be warmer than the water coming from a cooling source (the rad).
Temp rises across a waterblock are in the region of 0.5 to 1 degree C.

Problem - you've gone for silence. You don't have enough airflow. The rad will cope fine as long as it has enough airflow, which means you either need to move away from silence and go for faster fans to get results out of your current setup, or keep your current fans, buy some more of them, and add more radiator surface area (bigger or another radiator).

For a "silent" rig, you must ensure that you have enough radiator surface area to cover the heatload you're presenting to it with the amount of airflow "silent" fans can provide, otherwise temps will be no better (or possibly worse) than if you'd stuck with aircooling.

S'the most common mistake made in watercooling I'm afraid as people don't use the info available to work out what they actually need to do the job in advance of buying.

1 - Working out the heatload - ie: how many watts of heat you need to be able to cool.
Max possible Power Consumption = Max possible Heat Output. Go here: http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp

Fill in only the CPU and GPU fields (ie: the fields for those items upon which you intend to mount a waterblock), and the pump field (as your pump dumps heat into the system too). Hit calculate, and knock 38w off the result. What you have left is your heatload. If you want to include chipset cooling, just add another 100w for sake of argument and assume you'll be left with headroom. I recommend googling to find out what kind of overclock folks get with similar stepping CPUs and at what vCore, and completing the "overclock my cpu" field with the relevant details, as heatload gets much higher once you start overclocking it. Leave TDP on 85%**

For GPU overclocking, just add another 60w per card to the final total.


2 - Work out system flowrate
Reference IMPACT OF TUBING SIZES to decide tubing size.
There are plenty of sticky threads *on forums around the net* comparing latest blocks, pumps, radiators etc to help you decide which parts you want... or if using a kit, simply select the parts as listed in that kit's description on the Online Store.

Now, use the Flowrate Estimator to work out what your total liquid flowrate will be based on your selection of blocks etc etc. That'll give you an answer in gallons per minute.


3 - Work out roughly what CFM you need combined with liquid flowrate to cool the radiator adequately.
First, open the relevant graph for your radiator... *note, you'll have to find your own data for other manufacturer's rads*Take the answer from 1), and plot that on the vertical axis. Take the answer from 2) and plot that on the horizontal. Where the two cross, look for the nearest colored line. Each line represents one of 3 fans at either 12v or 7v.

Pf H = Panaflo FBA12G12-H1A - 105cfm, 6.8mmH2O, 41.5dBA @ 12v (Factory spec)
1212M = Delta WFB1212M - 72.4cfm, 3.4mmH2O, 34dBA @ 12v (Factory spec)
Nexus = Nexus D12SL-12 - 36.8cfm, 22.8dBA @12v (Factory spec)

You should be able to guage approximately what CFM-per-fan you need to be moving thru the radiator from some fudgy guesswork and approximations by dividing the space between the fan's lines into equal increments etc.


4 - Choose your fans
Once you know roughly what kind of CFM per fan you want to be using, you now need to find a fan that will produce that amount within your noise tolerance. Refer to the following data...

flow-noise-amb.png


Look along the horizontal axis for the CFM you need. Go up til you hit the first line. This is the quietest fan for the job. Now find that fan in the links below... and look at the green line on it's graph. Find your CFM on the horizontal axis, go straight up til you hit the green line. Now go straight across to the right. That's the rpm the fan needs to go at. Now go left from the rpm til you hit the BLUE line, and go straight up. That'll tell you what voltage you need to run that fan on to achieve that rpm, and thus achieve the desired airflow at the lowest noiselevel possible.

Individual-fan cfm vs noise vs rpm vs voltage graphs:Source: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150261 - check this to see if there are any updates to the above info (eg: more fans added to the list)


Doneskis. Your system should now be capable of returning coolant to [ambient + 10degC] (ish)


If this results in your only choice being fans you consider to be excessively noisy, you can recalculate it settling for a final coolant temp of [ambient + 15degC] (so roughly 5 deg C higher temps all round basically - you always sacrifice temperature for noise and vice-versa... low temp = high noise, high temp = low noise) by substituting the dissipation graph from step 3) above with the one below... but you'll need to use the Liquid Flow Equivalents converter to convert the answer from 2) into lpm, as I can't be arsed to translate the graph from lpm into gpm (sorry!!).

**100% TDP will only ever be reached by your CPU on one occasion. The ONLY piece of software that is capable of running your CPU at 100% TDP is Intel's TAT (Thermal Analysis Tool). At any other time when your PC is at "full load", it's actually only at 85%(ish) TDP. See http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=4...tat+power+virus

Bear in mind that this calculation will always be MORE than the heatload you're actually producing due to inefficiencies in power regulation in both the PSU and the mobo etc etc... where the calculator may say "CPU A produces 80w at 85% TDP at stock", in reality, your PC will only probably cause it to create 80% TDP at most due to variances elsewhere on the board... hence doing any testing using a PC for the testrig can be difficult, as the heatload can never be quantified with anything near 100% accuracy.

*Italic bits* replace links to competitors. Source can't be linked as it's a competitor, but suffice to say, I am the source.

It's longwinded, but is the only realistic method to ensure what you're buying can cool what you want to cool using the information and tools publicly available. You'll find the bigger the radiator, the less airflow is needed to cool the same heatload, and thus less noise is produced.
 
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Temp rises across a waterblock are in the region of 0.5 to 1 degree C.

Problem - you've gone for silence. You don't have enough airflow. The rad will cope fine as long as it has enough airflow, which means you either need to move away from silence and go for faster fans to get results out of your current setup, or keep your current fans, buy some more of them, and add more radiator surface area (bigger or another radiator).

For a "silent" rig, you must ensure that you have enough radiator surface area to cover the heatload you're presenting to it with the amount of airflow "silent" fans can provide, otherwise temps will be no better (or possibly worse) than if you'd stuck with aircooling.

S'the most common mistake made in watercooling I'm afraid as people don't use the info available to work out what they actually need to do the job in advance of buying.



*Italic bits* replace links to competitors. Source can't be linked as it's a competitor, but suffice to say, I am the source.

It's longwinded, but is the only realistic method to ensure what you're buying can cool what you want to cool using the information and tools publicly available.

Hi, interesting stuff, ok, I'm using the standard fans that come with the kit and the rad is mounted outside the case which has plenty of airflow. When I said silence I meant reducing the noise form the graphic cards. As I stated, the rad becomes very warm under 100% load in prime, however the pipes do not feel as hot..
ChrisC
 
Thanks for that Marci ... will check it out later as I haven't yet ordered any of my parts (apart from the pump) and should be able to determine if the rad I liked is good enough :)
 
I'm using the standard fans that come with the kit and the rad is mounted outside the case which has plenty of airflow.

No it doesn't... that's your problem. It has enough airflow to deal with a specific amount of heat at a reasonable temp. Any more heat than that and temps will become unreasonable as you're seeing.

From Swiftech's MCR220 page at Swiftnets.com...

MCR220QP_HD_VS_FR.PNG


What does the above graph tell you?

With the stock fans, assuming 2gpm flowrate, at 12v they can cool 325w to decent temp. At 7v they can cool 225w at decent temp. At 5v they can cool 150w at decent temp.

Even with exactly 325w heatload, you're on the brink of pushing temps into pantsville for watercooling. Partner up a high heatload with a waterblock that isn't particularly designed for a QuadCore's heatflux and you'll see CPU temps getting silly compared to tolerable GPU temps

As I stated, the rad becomes very warm under 100% load in prime, however the pipes do not feel as hot..

If radiator is warm to touch, that's a clear sign of not enough airflow removing the heat from the radiator's fins, which means it effectively gets dumped into the radiator's body (hence it's warm to touch) and back into the coolant again on the coolant's second pass thru the rad - ie: The radiator is saturated with heat. A radiator with enough airflow will generally feel cool to the touch as the fans are removing all the heat being passed into the structure of the core.


Q6600 @ 3.6Ghz with 1.4vcore = 198w of heatload at full load.
Pump = around 18w of heatload
HD2900 = 140w of heat each.

Your total heatload = 198 +18 + 140 + 140 = 496w of heat that you're asking the system to remove once everything is under load.
 
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