F1 2007/2008 Winter Testing and Rumours

[SC04]

Should Alonso move to Honda, Button will be No2. Alonso wont move to a struggling team like Honda to be No2 to anybody. Brawn will ensure that the strategy that he and Ferrari used with MS is used again with Honda and Alonso. Thats IF Alonso moves to Honda.

How far do you take the N02 status? Alonso might end up with the better equipment, but I doubt Button would stand for not being able to see Alonso's data and other tricks that schumacher enjoyed.
Alonso has never been a number 1 in a team, and only got preferential treatment when he was in a position of challanging for the title, which Fissi or Trulli could have easily of enjoyed.

I hated the fact that Ferrari were able to employ 2 drivers on unequal terms in schumachers days, and didnt expect they would win both championships, but they did, and it seems the way to go. Only recently did Pat Symonds say it was something Renault should now consider.

 

[sunama]

Ferrari wern't weak, they finished third in 1995 with podiums and pole positions, the same as McLaren in 2006.

OK. Ferrari wernt a back of the grid team as Honda are, but, they were weak in comparison to Benetton.

1st: Benetton: 147pts
3rd: Ferrari: 73pts.

Benetton scored more than double the points of Ferrari. They finished well behind Benetton.

2yrs later, Ferrari had MS competing for the world title in a car that really shouldnt have been.

1st: Villeneuve 81pts
2nd: Schumacher 78pts

Now that is some turn around.

You could also argue how come schumacher struggled to beat rookies like Hill and Villeneuve, and even Hakkinen hadn't won that many races until all the real greats had left the sport.

MS can only beat those drivers that are placed in front of him. You cannot blame him for having Senna, Prost and Mansell all leave F1, just as he was coming to prominence.

 

[sunama]

How far do you take the N02 status? Alonso might end up with the better equipment, but I doubt Button would stand for not being able to see Alonso's data and other tricks that schumacher enjoyed.

I was unaware that MS employed this trick. I always thought that he wanted his team mate to score as many points as possible (for the contructors title), just as long as they didnt score more than him.

Do you have a source for this?

Alonso has never been a number 1 in a team, and only got preferential treatment when he was in a position of challanging for the title, which Fissi or Trulli could have easily of enjoyed.

Yep. Thats what I mean when I talk about No1 status. You start off the season equally, with no obvious talk of No1 or No2 status (unless in the previous season, you absolutely hammered your team mate, like MS used to do).

The problem for McLaren in 2007, was that both their drivers were level pegging on points, so it was difficult for them to begin to give preferential treatment to either one.

 

[SC04]

OK. Ferrari wernt a back of the grid team as Honda are, but, they were weak in comparison to Benetton.

1st: Benetton: 147pts
3rd: Ferrari: 73pts.

Benetton scored more than double the points of Ferrari. They finished well behind Benetton.

2yrs later, Ferrari had MS competing for the world title in a car that really shouldnt have been.

1st: Villeneuve 81pts
2nd: Schumacher 78pts

Now that is some turn around.



MS can only beat those drivers that are placed in front of him. You cannot blame him for having Senna, Prost and Mansell all leave F1, just as he was coming to prominence.

The turnaround came from Brawn solving reliabilty issues, it was already a fast enough car to break up the dominant Benetton and williams. When you look at the resourses Ferrari had, not to mention the incoming staff and data coming from the WC team, it really should have been.

 

[SC04]

I was unaware that MS employed this trick. I always thought that he wanted his team mate to score as many points as possible (for the contructors title), just as long as they didnt score more than him.

Do you have a source for this?

One source was an F1 racing magazine's interview with Johnny Herbert, Johnny was often quicker than shumacher in certain sectors and schumacher had access to his data to figure out how to go quicker, but Herbert wasnt allowed access to schumachers data. Part of teamwork is to share the data to get the optimium lap from both drivers, which is partly why you saw the likes of Villeneuve and Hamilton able to go quick from the off.
There is all sorts of trickery going on between team mates, which is why the Alonso and Hamilton feud shouldnt have come to a surprise to anyone whos followed the sport a long time. There is some incredible bitching going on now about drivers from fans, seems to be part of internet culture, but in the old days competitive team mates rarely got on, and made things more interesting.

 

[Duke]

That is why Trulli and Ralf went wrong. They both learnt how to be slow off each other

 

[sunama]

There is all sorts of trickery going on between team mates, which is why the Alonso and Hamilton feud shouldnt have come to a surprise to anyone whos followed the sport a long time.

I was only surprised because I thought that Hamilton was a "yes man" and did as he was told. As the year progressed, we saw how he was becoming increasingly confident in his own abilities and his position within the F1 fraternity. He started going against team orders (Hungary) and after the season has finished was commenting on which driver should come in and that Alonso should leave. Consider that this is his first season, he really has developed quickly and already has a huge ego.

Obviously, if Alonso and MS were racing together, then you would expect there to be little co-operation between them as they would both be gunning for the title from the word go and both are world champions, but Hamilton was just a rookie.

By removing Alonso, McLaren have signalled their intention that from here on in, maybe for the next decade or so, the entire team will be based around Hamilton.

There is some incredible bitching going on now about drivers from fans, seems to be part of internet culture, but in the old days competitive team mates rarely got on, and made things more interesting.

Absolutely. Its always happened. For the last few years, the arguing has died down. In the days of Piquet, Prost, Senna and Mansell there was a lot arguing and even "taking eachother off the track". Ive enjoyed this year because we have seen 2 people - Alonso and Hamilton - both genuine contenders, both really arguing with eachother and attempting to do everything on and off the track to gain the upper hand. When they were racing eachother on the track, it was personal. This is something that has been missing since the days of Prost, Senna and Mansell, though Hill and MS did have a "history".

 

[sunama]

That is why Trulli and Ralf went wrong. They both learnt how to be slow off each other

Hey, Trulli was quick in qualifying.

 

[dannyjo22]

Rubbish (again)

for someone who claims to know people in the industry you've really made a botch job of knocking Alonso all year, almost shameful TBH..

Knowing people within the industry has nothing to do with it, it's just an opinion on a driver the same as everyone else's regardless of who anyone knows. This is a forum which is what those opinons are for so keep your rubbish comments to yourself or use ignore.

Theres no point knocking Alonso because he had a reliable car, .

I'm not, he just wasn't faster than kimi, he just had more luick. Which is why he won atleast one of his titles at kimi's expense. Kimi was the faster driver all year. But reliabiltiy is a big part of F1 and although it's not alonso's fault kimi broke down I think he was very fortunate.

Button may be one of the quickest out there, but he doesnt appear to have that extra needed to take a team forward, or the ability off the track..

Really so what about after Button joined and Honda made a huge leap forward to score plenty of podiums? Myself I'm not a big believer in the huge drivers input some seem to think they have but a few on here seem to think this yearts macca was down to alonso so surely it would figure that has something to do with button.

Buttons failings are the same as JV's, putting his faith in a team outside the normal top 3. Believing that his own ability is enough to drag the team forward. No driver will ever be enough to do that in the mess that is Honda. That will take a few years of work from people like Brawn and whoever he can bring in.

Alonso won his titles from consistancy and being able to keep faster cars behind him, not to mention not cracking under pressure, like schumacher, Hill and Hamilton all did..

Huh? There has never been a better example of a driver cracking under pressure than Alonso from about 3 races in when he realised he wasn't getting it all his own way. He made more mistakes this year than I've ever seen from a F1 world champion. This year he redefined the meaning of cracking under pressure. He totally lost the plot.

Yet at Renault where he was contractually the No1 he was in his element. Having a contract that stipulates your no1 doesnt exactly show confidence in your own ability.

OK. Ferrari wernt a back of the grid team as Honda are, but, they were weak in comparison to Benetton.

1st: Benetton: 147pts
3rd: Ferrari: 73pts.

.

Thats because all the cheating electronics or should I say stretching of the electronic rules moved across to ferrari with the genius engineers and technical staff that left Benetton.

Hey, Trulli was quick in qualifying.

Trulli's problem was Flav, flav did all he could to unsettle him at Renault when he was doing well against one of his boys. His face when trulli won showed the story.

Fis was the same when he won Oz. Flav didnt look pleased at all. Look at statement this week from Fisi's manager. It's clear fisi was a no2.

F1 should not be about making up the numbers and supporting a team mate. I see why it's done but those sort of contracts should not be allowed to happen. It must be hard to stay motivated as a driver knowing you cannot be allowed to win unless your team mate hits the wall hard.

I have no respect for drivers that need those sort of contracts.

I remember the flak JV got for having a contract that said he must have the T car. Yet their were and still are drivers that have contracts where the other guy is a support act.

 

[sunama]

Huh? There has never been a better example of a driver cracking under pressure than Alonso from about 3 races in when he realised he wasn't getting it all his own way. He made more mistakes this year than I've ever seen from a F1 world champion. This year he redefined the meaning of cracking under pressure. He totally lost the plot.

Sorry man. I have to disagree with you. I would say that Alonso was certainly unsettled by Hamilton's peformance and insistence from Dennis that Alonso would not be given special treatment, but I commend Alonso for being able to finish 1pt from the lead, despite (for half of the season) working in a team where most of them were not actually talking to him, including the man responsible for the hiring and firing - his boss.

Danny, Im sure that you work for a living. Now imagine if most of your colleagues, including your own boss, were not speaking to you. You arrived at work, nobody said hello...nothing. In fact, when you would arrive, everybody who was talking, would stop and go quiet, the moment you arrived. Nobody says a word to you. Working in this environment is not conducive to you producing your best work. Most people would crack under this sort of pressure and may even quit. Alonso, soldiered on and kept bringing in the results.

As paranoid as Alonso is, he would have believed that nobody at McLaren wanted him to win. Despite all this he soldiered on and finished 1pt from the top.

If Alonso was given more encouragment by his colleagues, I think he would've certainly scored a few more points and won the title.

I doubt many other drivers in F1 (if any) wouldve been able to score as many points as Alonso did in the conditions that he was working in.

I feel that after 2007, Alonso has become (mentally) a better driver. Not faster, but better able to handle people and pressures. I think he is very well equipped to race in the same team as Kimi.

Yet at Renault where he was contractually the No1 he was in his element. Having a contract that stipulates your no1 doesnt exactly show confidence in your own ability.

Its because he believes that he is the best that he doesnt want any interference from his own team mate. If he felt that he wasnt the best, then he would want to race equally with Fisichella, Hamilton or whoever.

If Alonso teamed up with Kimi or MS, I can guarantee you that he wouldnt want any special treatment, as he would know that he was paired up with an equal. His problem is that he believes he shouldnt have to be treated the same was as say Hamilton or Fisichella as (in his mind) they are inferior.

 

[dannyjo22]

I will say much of what you say regards no one talking to him, he bought on himself with his childish attitude.

You say he wants the No1 status because he's the best and doesnt want interference, I think the opposite fair enough.

He should've stayed at Macca then and proved us right or wrong. Instead he ran

I guess we just see it differently which is fine and the point of this discussion, so I will leave it there regards Fernando

 

[sunama]

You say he wants the No1 status because he's the best and doesnt want interference, I think the opposite fair enough.

Remember, only once you have proved yourself (which Alonso did at Renault) can you demand this sort of preferential treatment. Alain Prost did this when he drove for Williams in 1993, as did MS when he was at Ferrari. This might even have been a big factor in forcing Mansell out of Williams that year.

He should've stayed at Macca then and proved us right or wrong. Instead he ran

I agree. Had Alonso raced for McLaren in 2008, it wouldve been a bigger slap in their faces had he won the title against their hopes, beating their golden boy in the process and then left, taking the No1 car with him. Obviously his working conditions had become too difficult for him to continue.

I guess we just see it differently which is fine and the point of this discussion, so I will leave it there regards Fernando

We agree to disagree.

 

[dannyjo22]

Remember, only once you have proved yourself (which Alonso did at Renault) can you demand this sort of preferential treatment. Alain Prost did this when he drove for Williams in 1993, as did MS when he was at Ferrari. This might even have been a big factor in forcing Mansell out of Williams that year.

Prost did it with mansell in 1990 which is why mansell refused to race with him in 93. He had the team take mansells car and have his own stickers put on mansells car because he thought mansells car was quicker.

Mansell then put Prosts car on pole.

I dont blame Mansell for not wanting to race with him.

Prost is another who was all happy and smiles at mclaren, thought senna was a decent guy right up until Senna proved he was a serious threat.

 

[sunama]

Prost did it with mansell in 1990 which is why mansell refused to race with him in 93. He had the team take mansells car and have his own stickers put on mansells car because he thought mansells car was quicker.

Mansell then put Prosts car on pole.

I dont blame Mansell for not wanting to race with him.

LOL. I remember those shenanigans. I can imagine Prost and his mechanics having a laugh about it all...almost like a practical joke.

Its a shame that we cant have the same sort of thing happen these days, between top drivers. Maybe had Damon Hill joined Ferrari, after he won the world title, MS wouldve pulled a stunt like that on Hill.

Amongst the current crop of drivers, I can only ever see Alonso doing something so devlish. We seem to lack the big personalities right now in F1.

 

[Duke]

Ross Brawn interview..

Q: Before signing for Honda you no doubt did some analysis of their situation. What do you think were the root causes of their tough 2007 season?

RB: It is too early to say. What I would like to say is that I had some expectations, or rather some hopes, of what I would find at Honda when I was discussing my move with the Honda executives and (team CEO) Nick Fry. They gave me a picture of the situation and I must say that what I found here is even better than they described. I am very happy about what I have discovered in my first week at Honda. For sure there is a huge challenge in front of all of us, but all the resources, all the tools are in place and the people are incredibly enthusiastic and committed to try and succeed in the future. Even with all the tools the most important thing you have in a team are the people. I came here and found people who are very keen and very ambitious for the future. Their enthusiasm was almost palpable. I did not have to face a demoralized workforce - that would have been disappointing.

http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews/2007/12/7148.html

 

[Duke]

Timings for Day 1 Jerez

[b]Name 	 	Team 	 	T 	Laps 	Time 	 	Gap[/b]
Heidfeld  	BMW  	 	B 	78 	1:19.042 	125.315 mph 
Button  	Honda  	 	B 	70 	1:19.155 	0.113 
de la Rosa  	McLaren  	B 	48 	1:19.712 	0.670 
Raikkonen  	Ferrari  	B 	78 	1:20.063 	1.021 
Piquet 	  	Renault  	B 	67 	1:20.366 	1.324 
Bourdais 	Toro Rosso  	B 	101 	1:20.615 	1.573 
Paffett  	McLaren  	B 	50 	1:20.638 	1.596 
Webber  	Red Bull  	B 	69 	1:20.682 	1.640 
Gene  	 	Ferrari  	B 	67 	1:20.832 	1.790 
Conway 	 	Super Aguri 	B 	88 	1:20.927 	1.885 
Vettel  	Toro Rosso  	B 	46 	1:21.060 	2.018 
Rossiter  	Super Aguri  	B 	75 	1:21.246 	2.204 
Glock  	 	Toyota  	B 	69 	1:21.336 	2.294 
Fisichella  	Force India 	B 	53 	1:21.424 	2.382 
Hulkenberg 	WilliamsF1  	B 	28 	1:21.551 	2.509 
Nakajima  	WilliamsF1  	B 	33 	1:21.566 	2.524 
Montagny  	Force India 	B 	65 	1:21.697 	2.655 
Asmer 	 	BMW  	 	B 	53 	1:21.962 	2.920 
Kobayashi 	Toyota  	B 	114 	1:22.196 	3.154 
Villa 	 	BMW  	 	B 	57 	1:22.503 	3.461

Unfortunatly Button and Heidfeld were on slicks (in prep for possible change in 2009 season), so Brawn isn't that good that quick

 

[NicktheNorse]

Renault found guilty but not penalised

Good to see the FIA still have some sense in them. The whole affair has been blown up out of proportion, and unlike what the majority of armchair experts state as fact, our case is nothing like that of Mclaren.

 

[SIAT]

What a joke.

 

[NicktheNorse]

What a joke.

Why do you think so?

The only reason you would hold that opinion is that you are misinformed.

 

[Slam62]

What a joke.

hmmm