Thank you BMW DSC!

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I can see why ABS is implied, because it is required for the ESC system to work.
TC however is a system similar to ESC but aiming for a different objective, so it's likely most cars will have both, though it's entirely possible for one to be there without the other.
 
PMKeates said:
The computer is much less likely to fail at driving than any human. I'd much rather trust machine over man.
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That's just crazy. So far in this thread you've just been the poster child for why these systems can be a bad idea in the wrong hands.

And as for all this 'what if you really *need* to stamp on the pedal without thinking' crowd... well you never *need* to, and with practice you can learn not to do it. First time I made a big mistake on the brakes I crashed. If I was in the same situation again now, I'd avoid it easily by proper use of the brakes. Now I'd really rather not have a system like ABS as I feel happier controlling my own brakes.
 
PMKeates said:
With DSC, it may be the slightest drag on the front right wheel for a fraction of a second, that has virtually no impedence on progress, that counters the generation of the moment for oversteer and allows excellent pace through the bend. This is automated, the light would illuminate, but the counter is minimal yet enhances the handling of the car and could theoretically make it quicker than the same car without DSC.
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That's a bit of an exaggeration of DSC's abilities. It's more a case of "car detects the oversteer and corrects it, whilst the driver gets a few violent snap-backs in his seat as the tyres regain traction"... not "car detects you are feeling racey, detects you entering a S curve, and detects before anything bad has happened that it needs to counter some oversteer that hasn't happened yet."

Most people would argue that DSC only really makes a car safer and indeed hardcore people would argue that DSC is simply a chassis designer's last chance of fixing fundamental problems with an unbalanced car (think Porsche 911...) It certainly doesn't make a car quicker in any way. It makes it easier to drive for numpties yes. It also removes enjoyment from the driving experience.

DSC is not a good thing for anything other than safety and having the light flashing like a Christmas tree is most definately not a good thing as it means you, as a driver, aren't driving to the conditions of the road and/or don't know the limits of the car.
 
Lopéz said:
Does any run of the mill road car really need traction control?
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I like it. I like all these systems - they add a safety net for us numpties and give experienced people like housemaster the option to turn them off.

They only become a problem when people drive differently as a result of having them.
 
divine` said:
I can see why ABS is implied, because it is required for the ESC system to work.
TC however is a system similar to ESC but aiming for a different objective, so it's likely most cars will have both, though it's entirely possible for one to be there without the other.
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I'd argue they both have the same objective, as the aim of both is to maximise vehicle control; to make the vehicle's actions reflect driver intention as closely as possible. You'll often find TC without ESC, but while to find ESC without TC is not impossible, in practice in never happens.
 
Lopéz said:
Does any run of the mill road car really need traction control?
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For me the answer is that i feel its nice to have it, and its available, so why not. If you take my car for example it means that i dont need to worry too much if its showing below freezing outside, i know that if i get a spot of ice then hopefully it should assist. Its been quite nice having it there on my local small roads covered in wet leaves etc.

Wouldnt want to use it as a means to drive faster than i would otherwise however.
 
AtomicBanana said:
That's just crazy. So far in this thread you've just been the poster child for why these systems can be a bad idea in the wrong hands.

And as for all this 'what if you really *need* to stamp on the pedal without thinking' crowd... well you never *need* to, and with practice you can learn not to do it. First time I made a big mistake on the brakes I crashed. If I was in the same situation again now, I'd avoid it easily by proper use of the brakes. Now I'd really rather not have a system like ABS as I feel happier controlling my own brakes.
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Its easy to say, a lot harder to do in practice.
 
Berger said:
Id rather have ABS, as in the situation when you need it its a big assistance, someone steps out or pulls out and you need to stamp on the pedal to stop ASAP you can do just that and it will stop.

Without it, just lock the brakes due to the sudden braking.

In those situations you dont have time to think oh id better cadence brake a bit or lean on the brakes a little before i really work the pedal.
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I agree that it's a good thing to have, and yes I have hammered the pedal in a panic situation before, but it doesn't take a lot to react to the lockup, reconsider your actions and start cadence braking. I'm not trying to imply that I have godlike skill though, maybe one day this will fail me, I hope it doesn't though, people managed pretty well before ABS was invented so it isn't so bad. I suppose that also no matter how good your pedal technique is, nobody is 100% alert at all times, so yes ABS is a good feature to have for sure.

I also never said DSC was a bad thing, it definitely IS a good thing, just not when you are consistently making use of it to make up for your inadequacies as a driver.
 
PMKeates said:
I'd argue they both have the same objective, as the aim of both is to maximise vehicle control; to make the vehicle's actions reflect driver intention as closely as possible. You'll often find TC without ESC, but while to find ESC without TC is not impossible, in practice in never happens.
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That's a more general aim though, which i'd agree with at that level.

I was getting at the fact ESC is aiming at correcting the direction of the vehicle if the car deems undesirable over or understeer is occurring.

TC is aiming to prevent wheels spinning and maximise the traction with the road.
 
[TW]Fox;10698858 said:
I like it. I like all these systems - they add a safety net for us numpties and give experienced people like housemaster the option to turn them off.

They only become a problem when people drive differently as a result of having them.
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Nothing wrong with liking them - but I regularly hear comments like "What it really needs is traction control" or "With TC off I kill my tyres in half the miles" etc etc..... all a bit dramatic on a normal road car IMO.
 
NathanE said:
That's a bit of an exaggeration of DSC's abilities. It's more a case of "car detects the oversteer and corrects it, whilst the driver gets a few violent snap-backs in his seat as the tyres regain traction"... not "car detects you are feeling racey, detects you entering a S curve, and detects before anything bad has happened that it needs to counter some oversteer that hasn't happened yet."
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I don't consider it an exaggeration as it's a real scenario. I realised what exactly it was doing when I had just my rear tyres replaced, as due to the wheel circumference change the DSC system would make far more pronounced adjustments incredibly early (jokingly early).
 
PMKeates said:
I'd argue they both have the same objective, as the aim of both is to maximise vehicle control; to make the vehicle's actions reflect driver intention as closely as possible. You'll often find TC without ESC, but while to find ESC without TC is not impossible, in practice in never happens.
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I suggest you spend less time reading the marketing blurb and get yourself on some driver instruction, then you will truly know what it does do......and what it doesn't. Regurgitate the stuff you have been coming out with on this thread on a BMW driver training day and EVERYONE will simply look at you like this..

nelson_ha_ha.jpg
 
PMKeates said:
I don't consider it an exaggeration as it's a real scenario. I realised what exactly it was doing when I had just my rear tyres replaced, as due to the wheel circumference change the DSC system would make far more pronounced adjustments incredibly early (jokingly early).
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It's a real scenario yes but your understanding of what the DSC did is completely flawed. No car, not even F1 or WRC cars, have traction control systems as advanced as this to know to "brake a wheel for a couple milliseconds whilst entering a corner so as to prevent some negative handling trait of the chassis occuring a little bit later in the corner". DSC is purely a "reactive" technology. What reactive means is that it waits for something bad to happen and then by analysing the extent of the problem using wheel rotation sensors it calculates how to correct the problem.

So your car has got cameras/sensors and A.I. from 50 years in the future has it? Nah...
 
housemaster said:
I suggest you spend less time reading the marketing blurb and get yourself on some driver instruction, then you will truly know what it does do......and what it doesn't. Regurgitate the stuff you have been coming out with on this thread on a BMW driver training day and EVERYONE will simply look at you like this..
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Pffft... what would YOU know?
 
Berger said:
Its easy to say, a lot harder to do in practice.
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Oh, I'm not saying it's easy.. and freely admit I crashed once finding out how. But I think driving should stay dangerous in this manner.. I don't think I should ever drive in a manner thinking 'I'm sure the ABS will work it out' etc.

My car is crap, not going to argue there, but the lack of aids still mean that I must be the one thinking for myself at all times. I just think all these things are a slipperly slope to the point where people driving using all these devices as cruches, rather than your last chance to avoid ending up in a ditch.
 
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