why do we blank out the word god?
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Problem is you already believe in it, so whatever else happens fits around it. Believing in something which was taught as nothing more than a fairy tale, and still believing it whether good, bad or the ugly happens is just foolish. Ie I believe in santa, I didn't die when travelling to work yesterday so santa was looking out for me. My auntie died last week so santa wanted that to happen like that too. This is just irrational logic.
I think your age sums a lot too, which is what I've already explained teaching children should be banned. At 16 you already have been warped to stay a christian for life. There is not a differeence between this child, and you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaFIeDQ6hyg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpep_5LIbZ8&feature=related
(supposed to recite the whole thing, not just short sections)
I bet 99% of children can't recite the complete lord of the rings word perfect. I bet if I were on a island, with LOTR trilogy and teached all new borns that LOTR was religious stories, they'll believe it too. Perhaps Frodo is the new Jesus/Mohammed. Tell me how that isn't brainwashing. Christian, RC, Protestant is the same, to a lesser degree.
Man of Honour
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He did that with me too, which leads me to believe that it isn't proof and is no more than somoene saying something happened.
Well I won the lottery last night and am now a millionnaire, I chartered a flight last night and went to meet santa and his elves, got my end away with mrs santa, had a fight with Mohammed Ali, had a kickabout with Eusebio and had a quick philosophical discussion with Socrates before returning home
Your Saturday night certainly sounds better than mine was.
For some reason though there appears to be a bit of debate about what consitutes evidence and proof when they aren't exactly the same thing. I'm aware that you know the difference or appear to but it still seems to be in contention for whatever reason so I'm hoping that this might clarify it slightly. Your statement above could be evidence, it could be entirely true but the most glaringly obvious point against that conclusion is simply Socrates is dead (unless you are talking about the footballer and I have no idea on his philosophical leanings or why you didn't have a kickabout with him at the same time) so your statement cannot be proof in the accepted sense of the word. You additionally have no corroboration which means that less weight should be attached to it. If, however, I believe that you did all the above last night then I must take it as a matter of faith that you would not lie and that all the above was possible - the evidence adduced in support of your claim isn't of the standard to convince me so I would not count it as proof, nor the claim proved.
One religion has a person coming back from the dead, so certainly I'd disagree his example isn't unbelievable. Therefore what happened did occur. He now needs to tell millions of people about it, and right it down. Therefore eventually it becomes fact.
It's the same behaviour as Bose and Apple products. Repeat it enough with lots of marketing, and the people do the rest. Advertising is the new religion.
Soldato
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Even though I'm quite skeptical about religion, I admire how yantorsen is still able to remain calm after all these days of debating 
I just don't buy in on the whole "I am Jesus, I am son of god" thing. Plenty of people out there with conditions claiming to be someone that they clearly aren't, schizophrenia I believe it is called. There are always people out there who are dishonest, lie about what has happened to them, so that they get some attention. E.g. like all those people who claim to have been abducted by aliens (although they could be telling the truth...).
Im more of a Science man, if we can prove it exists then it must exist, if we have proven it cannot exist then it does not exist, if we cannot prove the existence of something then we do not know whether it exists or not (god, Aliens, etc).
Im just rambling anyway...ill do anything to get divert my attention from my studies
I just don't buy in on the whole "I am Jesus, I am son of god" thing. Plenty of people out there with conditions claiming to be someone that they clearly aren't, schizophrenia I believe it is called. There are always people out there who are dishonest, lie about what has happened to them, so that they get some attention. E.g. like all those people who claim to have been abducted by aliens (although they could be telling the truth...).
Im more of a Science man, if we can prove it exists then it must exist, if we have proven it cannot exist then it does not exist, if we cannot prove the existence of something then we do not know whether it exists or not (god, Aliens, etc).
Im just rambling anyway...ill do anything to get divert my attention from my studies
Which conforms nicely with my assumption of you seeking out knowledge to validate your current belief system. This is not thinking for yourself, this is foolish and pandering to whims.
Man of Honour
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Ok then, let us call it a question of degree of implausibility. Socrates the philosopher has been dead for ~2,400 years give or take, Jesus was supposedly dead for ~3 days before rising from the dead - both claims might be unlikely but I've yet to hear of anyone who has been dead for over 100 years coming back to life, I have however heard of people being declared medically dead 'awakening' after a day or two while in the morgue.
The thing that makes it really obvoius imo and I would like to know what yantorsen thinks about this is that say for example I was a little stupid and didn't care about hard proof or logic I would still not believe, it seems yantorsen and many other christians beleive what they do because of their experience or others experiences.
But suerly not all religions can be right, ok you have 15 Christian mates that can tell you amazing storys about how god helped them and you trust them and they deffinetly are not making it up but what happens when you befriend a bunch of muslims or jews or buddists, do you get what I mean, according to each group they all have been helped by god but each religion teaches that the other religion is wrong and thus god wouldn't help them so they are kind of proving themselves wrong....
is it not more likely that god helped none of them cos he obviously couldn't have helped them all because they are from diff religions yet if you follow each religion only their god is real...
That IMO is the real killer.
But suerly not all religions can be right, ok you have 15 Christian mates that can tell you amazing storys about how god helped them and you trust them and they deffinetly are not making it up but what happens when you befriend a bunch of muslims or jews or buddists, do you get what I mean, according to each group they all have been helped by god but each religion teaches that the other religion is wrong and thus god wouldn't help them so they are kind of proving themselves wrong....
is it not more likely that god helped none of them cos he obviously couldn't have helped them all because they are from diff religions yet if you follow each religion only their god is real...
That IMO is the real killer.
Soldato
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Hi im jesus*
* Out of 100 what are the chances of this being true ?
------ religious sorts reading this, what ARE the chances of this being true ? have a good think, and then ask yourself what are the chances of a human, being gods son............if I keep telling you I am jesus for a very long time, and you tell your son or daughter and they theres............will it be more or less factually correct ?, well no it wouldnt, just they *may* beleive whatever you told them, especially if there a young child
Please dear god (pun intended) when will everyone just figure out whats obviously and clearly going on in front of them........there is no such thing as god or anything remotley like that...........iv done a huge debate on this forums last year, where religious dude simply could not answer the basic questions 256 pages later............
Quite simply its obvious and I wish people were not put off from admitting the truth from fear, brain washing ........whatever, but then thats the world, hopefully it will eventually reach the point where people are nice to each other and dont need to instil fear into everyone through religion or whatever
* Out of 100 what are the chances of this being true ?
------ religious sorts reading this, what ARE the chances of this being true ? have a good think, and then ask yourself what are the chances of a human, being gods son............if I keep telling you I am jesus for a very long time, and you tell your son or daughter and they theres............will it be more or less factually correct ?, well no it wouldnt, just they *may* beleive whatever you told them, especially if there a young childPlease dear god (pun intended) when will everyone just figure out whats obviously and clearly going on in front of them........there is no such thing as god or anything remotley like that...........iv done a huge debate on this forums last year, where religious dude simply could not answer the basic questions 256 pages later............
Quite simply its obvious and I wish people were not put off from admitting the truth from fear, brain washing ........whatever, but then thats the world, hopefully it will eventually reach the point where people are nice to each other and dont need to instil fear into everyone through religion or whatever
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Man of Honour
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Could you definitively state that there isn't just one god who appears differently to adherants of all religions? There is but one true god, he just has multiple forms in effect so all religions are correct.
Soldato
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Exactly my thoughts. I just don't see the need for people to hate each other just because they don't believe in the same things. People waste so much time and effort into their religions rather than doing something useful.
Soldato
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Can't remember the particular religion name in China/HK, but they don't have one god. A lot like the Romans whom believed in many gods as well.
The problem comes, and I think this may be what he was getting at, is that Christianity and Islam especially are totally against any other forms of religion.
The Quran and the Bible are supposedly accurate, yet contradict each other completely.
I guess it is posible, but then so is everything when dealing with a fictional creation. Go tell your theory to some strict relgious person and they wont like it I imagine, the infidels would have to be wrong, religions have different teachings and beliefs and some are strict, some less so. Anyway why am I even considering this lol..
Man of Honour
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You might be thinking of Shinto and/or Buddhism. It still doesn't prove or disprove the notion that all, a few or no religions are correct though - if we are talking about a deity who can do everything then to appear as multiple gods would seem so trivial as to barely merit a mention.
I should have been clearer, they could possibly be correct in that they both believe in the correct god, he just appears in different forms. I do not mean that religions are necessarily correct in the way they go about their faith, I've got various problems with the conduct of pretty much every religion but then again they are followed by people and it has long been my belief that without people around the World would be a much nicer place.
Nope, I'd imagine that someone who is deeply religious would not like the theory but most people are uncomfortable with the idea of their belief structure being challenged. It isn't a particularly easy thing to do and is always likely to be a difficult process since comfort tends to come from stability.
well the last point you answered your self so welldone.
and the first point, God doesn't controll everything, that would be interfearing with free will. Unless you want or ask God to do something.
The explanation for things that happen that are bad is Sin, but there are even more easy to understand explanations than that, like common sense.
eg. she caught salmanela, the reason that happened was because, somebody who breeded the chicked she ate did not do there job correctly, due to external unknnown motivation, possibley to save money, and then she didnt cook the chicken properly because she did not know how for what ever reason.
that is not to do with God. It's just a result of free will, buit ive stated before in this thread or the other one, that free will is preferable to us all being zombies, and the only way free will can exsist is if bad things happen.
"Yantorsen, you seem to believe (yes, an assumption) that you are well read, but from my objective reading of this thread -- you only seem to be versed within literature that conforms to your own ideals."
well the bible agrees by all acounts with what i say if thats what you mean?
and I have read plenty of atheistic writings if thats what you mean.
"I think but I do not believe (belief here being defined as having more weight than simple thought) that the bible (although historically accurate in the sense that there may be some correlations with scientific fact) or rather belief systems were created as a foundation to answer the unknowable, similar to what an earlier poster suggested. I think that perhaps these answers are manifestations created to ease the cognitive dissonance we experience in our quest for answers. Simply put; we do not like to be left without closure.
You assume that the burden is on others to prove there is a god(s) simply because you've been raised as a Christian -- you are the son of Christian parents. The natural state of affairs is atheism. When you are born you do not hold any prejudice, ideals or wants other than the instinctive need for survival. I'm afraid the onus is on you, as a theist to present the atheists (atheism being a-theism; a = without, theism = knowledge -- the term itself being somewhat bias, reflective of our historical past) with proof."
quite the opposite actually, my family isn't christian, My dad and mum are, but I wasn't raised a christian (ie i wasn't told i was a christian, i was allowed to decide if i wanted to be).
I know it is on me to help people understand, but only to the point where i explained it, it is then up to there free will if they want to believe it or not.
"people are trying to explain to you, and you've completely missed the point (which has in turn put doubts in my mind for any reasonable debate with you on that matter) on the original analogy of the FSM. Theists are the ones who are presenting atheists with a somewhat profound claim of the existence of a deity. It is therefore your responsibility to produce the associated evidence; this is how you argue with a sceptic"
do you have evidence of the FSM? honestly?
"In your mind, god gave us free will -- in my mind, this free will is to question everything. If it means breaking the "unforgivable sin", then so be it. It amuses me really; why would god create me if he ultimately knew that I would mature to question such things? It seems like somewhat of a fool's errand. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
well you've missed the point. God would have known what free will would do, obviously, but it's better than being zombies, dont you aggree? even from God's point of view, which is better, to be loved vy everyone because you made them love you, or be loved by less, but truly loved?
"Two more things -- how do you know that god is not evil? The bible seems to suggest otherwise and this isn't an assumption. The trump card of the New Testament doesn't change this either. Did you even recognise this in all your years or was it more convenient to ignore it?"
God created us, so if you like we "owe" him for that.
the new covenent does override the old, but what part of the bible gives God an evil side? he has an angry side, but the anger is justified.
"Also, have you ever even considered that you're wrong? You were brought up by a Christian parent and I'm not surprised at Gilly's amusement. Your brain is wired, through evolutionary workings to take what an authoritative figure tells you as truth because it would quite simply lead to death otherwise; it is natural selection in its essence. I seriously recommend that you educate yourself on what exactly evolution is, as it really isn't just an "offensive" remark of descending from Apes. Do you not find it strange that in embryology that we still have a lizard's tail, or how if the eye isn't perfect? Do you think a designer would deliberately leave these 'inefficient' flaws in?"
my parents never told me i was a christian, never told me christianity was correct, never told me anything you claim they have.
I never ruled out the idea of evolution myself, but either way God did make us perfect, but gave us free will, that was abused, thus makeing everything not perfect when it entered.
"Let me ask you; why do you think or believe that Christianity is the one true religion?"
I never said it was, there is only one God, so if another religion says they are worshipping there God, then there worship is still going to the same God as there is only one, they just worship there god in a different way. only its the same God.
the above is possible, but not what i personally beleive, but im yet to state much what i personally bleeive in this debate, people like to guess at that it seems.
"I don't like belittling others but you are still very young, and when I was 16 I thought I was pretty clued up too, but you really have a lot to learn and your first lesson is this; be more sceptical. Do not believe everything you read and that doesn't mean pick and choose which suit your current beliefs, but actually seek out the truth. Let me ask you; in those videos you uploaded, did you believe anything Dawkins had to say or did you simply dismiss it?"
I have searched for the truth and found it, and i did look at plenty of other stuff as ive said.
nothing dawkins said was anything more than either theory/specualtion (plus he has had no experieance of the holy spirit), and a lot of what he says doesnt dorectly disagree with any christian idea's, except that God doesn't exsist, and he says himself that he has no evidence that god doesnt exsist.
"The bible is not proof, it is simply evidence but the evidence in favour and against is highly skewed. When viewed completely objective (something which you seem incapable of doing at the moment) the bible is very dubious. You need to think; who, what, why, where and when?"
I never said the bible in itself is proof.
there's a lot more to it.
"Richard Dawkins - The Blind Watchmaker
Bill Bryson - A Short History of Nearly Everything"
ive read the former.
...and if you like those, I have plenty more suggestions to whet [edited for the pedantic] your appetite.
please go ahead and recomend some, and I recomend you read "God's Undertaker", by John Lennox
"PS: The Earth is thought to be about 4.5 billion years old with a 1% margin of error, the story of which is explained within Bryson's book. IIRC it was discovered through the use of carbon dating on meteorites, someone may correct me if I'm wrong."
your point, the bible doesnt disagree with this?
well the bible agrees by all acounts with what i say if thats what you mean?
and I have read plenty of atheistic writings if thats what you mean.
"I think but I do not believe (belief here being defined as having more weight than simple thought) that the bible (although historically accurate in the sense that there may be some correlations with scientific fact) or rather belief systems were created as a foundation to answer the unknowable, similar to what an earlier poster suggested. I think that perhaps these answers are manifestations created to ease the cognitive dissonance we experience in our quest for answers. Simply put; we do not like to be left without closure.
You assume that the burden is on others to prove there is a god(s) simply because you've been raised as a Christian -- you are the son of Christian parents. The natural state of affairs is atheism. When you are born you do not hold any prejudice, ideals or wants other than the instinctive need for survival. I'm afraid the onus is on you, as a theist to present the atheists (atheism being a-theism; a = without, theism = knowledge -- the term itself being somewhat bias, reflective of our historical past) with proof."
quite the opposite actually, my family isn't christian, My dad and mum are, but I wasn't raised a christian (ie i wasn't told i was a christian, i was allowed to decide if i wanted to be).
I know it is on me to help people understand, but only to the point where i explained it, it is then up to there free will if they want to believe it or not.
"people are trying to explain to you, and you've completely missed the point (which has in turn put doubts in my mind for any reasonable debate with you on that matter) on the original analogy of the FSM. Theists are the ones who are presenting atheists with a somewhat profound claim of the existence of a deity. It is therefore your responsibility to produce the associated evidence; this is how you argue with a sceptic"
do you have evidence of the FSM? honestly?
"In your mind, god gave us free will -- in my mind, this free will is to question everything. If it means breaking the "unforgivable sin", then so be it. It amuses me really; why would god create me if he ultimately knew that I would mature to question such things? It seems like somewhat of a fool's errand. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
well you've missed the point. God would have known what free will would do, obviously, but it's better than being zombies, dont you aggree? even from God's point of view, which is better, to be loved vy everyone because you made them love you, or be loved by less, but truly loved?
"Two more things -- how do you know that god is not evil? The bible seems to suggest otherwise and this isn't an assumption. The trump card of the New Testament doesn't change this either. Did you even recognise this in all your years or was it more convenient to ignore it?"
God created us, so if you like we "owe" him for that.
the new covenent does override the old, but what part of the bible gives God an evil side? he has an angry side, but the anger is justified.
"Also, have you ever even considered that you're wrong? You were brought up by a Christian parent and I'm not surprised at Gilly's amusement. Your brain is wired, through evolutionary workings to take what an authoritative figure tells you as truth because it would quite simply lead to death otherwise; it is natural selection in its essence. I seriously recommend that you educate yourself on what exactly evolution is, as it really isn't just an "offensive" remark of descending from Apes. Do you not find it strange that in embryology that we still have a lizard's tail, or how if the eye isn't perfect? Do you think a designer would deliberately leave these 'inefficient' flaws in?"
my parents never told me i was a christian, never told me christianity was correct, never told me anything you claim they have.
I never ruled out the idea of evolution myself, but either way God did make us perfect, but gave us free will, that was abused, thus makeing everything not perfect when it entered.
"Let me ask you; why do you think or believe that Christianity is the one true religion?"
I never said it was, there is only one God, so if another religion says they are worshipping there God, then there worship is still going to the same God as there is only one, they just worship there god in a different way. only its the same God.
the above is possible, but not what i personally beleive, but im yet to state much what i personally bleeive in this debate, people like to guess at that it seems.
"I don't like belittling others but you are still very young, and when I was 16 I thought I was pretty clued up too, but you really have a lot to learn and your first lesson is this; be more sceptical. Do not believe everything you read and that doesn't mean pick and choose which suit your current beliefs, but actually seek out the truth. Let me ask you; in those videos you uploaded, did you believe anything Dawkins had to say or did you simply dismiss it?"
I have searched for the truth and found it, and i did look at plenty of other stuff as ive said.
nothing dawkins said was anything more than either theory/specualtion (plus he has had no experieance of the holy spirit), and a lot of what he says doesnt dorectly disagree with any christian idea's, except that God doesn't exsist, and he says himself that he has no evidence that god doesnt exsist.
"The bible is not proof, it is simply evidence but the evidence in favour and against is highly skewed. When viewed completely objective (something which you seem incapable of doing at the moment) the bible is very dubious. You need to think; who, what, why, where and when?"
I never said the bible in itself is proof.
there's a lot more to it.
"Richard Dawkins - The Blind Watchmaker
Bill Bryson - A Short History of Nearly Everything"
ive read the former.
...and if you like those, I have plenty more suggestions to whet [edited for the pedantic] your appetite.
please go ahead and recomend some, and I recomend you read "God's Undertaker", by John Lennox
"PS: The Earth is thought to be about 4.5 billion years old with a 1% margin of error, the story of which is explained within Bryson's book. IIRC it was discovered through the use of carbon dating on meteorites, someone may correct me if I'm wrong.
"your point, the bible doesnt disagree with this?