Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD @ CES

[james.miller]

Mr Latte - I cant see Sony selling 10 million Ps3's this year - I hope they do as that will double what is already out there, but I stilll think they are too expensive for mass adoption (under £250 and we would be getting there)

i paid about £230 for a toshiba sd-210e which back then was considered a 'budget' player. these days what we get for our money is an absolutely bargain!

 

[RoachycaL]

I decided to look on fleebay at the bluray players there and it actually seems cheaper to buy a player than buy a PS3. If I bought a PS3 to play blurays it would feel like such a waste IMO. Does anybody do it?

I saw some sony players on the bay for £200 brand new with like 3 movies thrown in - thats a pretty good price in my opinion. Too bad I'm only 17 so I don't really think It would be suitable me buying one I already have he add-on for the 360.

 

[Mr Latte]

First, there's no need to patronise, you can disagree but that doesn't mean the other person 'don't understand'.


In my opinion it's about margins and studios want to start making money from hard format HD. The war was meaning distributors, studios and the electronic firms were not making any where near the money they could have been doing. Let's not kid ourselves; sales of hd discs were alreay miniscule when compared to DVDs without having to worry about two formats. WB had realised whilst hd sales were going to increase it was never going to be a run away replacement for DVD, and most likely Fox/Disney and Sony were never going to budge so it was better to make some more money from one higher selling niche than another. By having one format they can keep the margins high as the enthusiast will always be willing to pay it.

When do you honestly think we'll see £50 blu-ray players and £10 discs? Because that's what it will need to take over.

Read what im trying to say and stop speculating about the importance of £50 Blu Ray players:

Your not even thinking with a business mind. Sometimes you have to plan ahead and make decisions adapting to market/situations. No-ones saying BD will take over DVD sales, gees not for a long time. They themselves dont even know that but what they do know is DVD has peaked and a decision to support one of the upcoming formats had to be made.

At this stage its nothing to do with margins because BD production will probably cost them money for quite a while. Its to do with assured stability and growth over a long term rather than short term margins or gains.
Initial sales at the start like i said earlier is to do with getting players into the market, creating brand awareness and making it deserible/affordable and available on a worldwide scale.
Sony have somehow convinced Warner they could do this and what that entailed is what has swung it for them.

Margins come from increased production and reduced costs. This improves over time so you want that installed userbase to grow quickly. Warner has been wooed by what Sony and its partners have arranged. Warner doesnt need a multi million $ pay off as some articles suggest. Look at their Broadcasting/Music/Movie studios are already making them. What it wants is future assurance of good sales in new technology a solution of maintaining high worldwide sales eventually replacing DVD as DVD sales begin to decrease and Hi Def becomes more common.

Its clear theyve decided to back Sony knowing a 2 format solution would always cripple sales including more overheads/production. "* Warner also tried if you remember to form a Dual Format disc but the other studios wernt interested and they abandoned it. Therefore a single format production platform had to be decided, and one that offered the largest installed market, with guranteed growth each year recognised on a global scale with great partner support.

That imo is the PS3 and in PS3 sales alone for installed players never mind standalones i think its obvious a once overpriced and laughed at console has now played such a huge part in deciding the format war. Sonys gamble maybe just has paid off. Toshiba never got enough partners, and missed out with not having a worldwide standard/console internally support its format.

For Sony im sure the revenge of betamax, because what VHS did was become the cheapest and widest available format, thats what ive been saying since PS3 appeared that when it became affordable and had more support showing the success of PS1 and PS2 it would be Sonys ACE card to ensuring the format penetrated many more households. Combine that with Fox, Disney as tow major players having exclusives im sure made it even easier for Warner.

Still talking nonsense am i or pie in the sky possibilities of the format?

 

[Manlove is my forte]

Mr Latte,

I agree that any new format has to be released with a view to the long term. However I think the timing was wrong, however I think both companies Sony and Toshiba & co were in a bit of a tricky situation. Television Technology was moving on. there was an opportunity in the market they obviously had R&D looking into higher capacity disc formats and there was a rival looking to fill the void. Now just because they had developed/patented the technologies they had does not mean they had to release them as commercial products. Not every thing developed by R&D teams makes it to production. But as I said, a rival company was looking to go to production with their technology, so there were 2 options. Remain out of the market and focus on something else or enter the market with what they had.
Both Sony and Toshiba & Co felt that entering the market was the only option at this point, probably because they felt that otherwise they would not have any chance of capitalising on their investments and they would have to wait another generation (10+ years) before another opportunity would arise. Meanwhile the rival company would be reaping the rewards of entering the market unchallenged.

So both Companies have thrown in their lot maybe they thought their product was more marketable for what ever reason and they hoped to win the market share. I suspect that this is a war of attrition though and they are hoping that their rival will suffer financially as a result of entering this market and be unable to compete in other market areas now or in the future.

I have no doubt in my mind that consumer benefit has had anything to do with the decision to release these formats, because if they were looking to provide a decent product to the consumer they would have married the 2 technologies and jointly made one disc. Such as what happened with the DVD

 

[Shep_Cobain]

i think HD-DVD is way better imo. but....... Blu Ray seems to be taking off big time!

Every film seems to be firing out on Blu Ray and not HD

Wheres The Simpsons Movie on HD?

 

[Pug]

i think HD-DVD is way better imo.

can you justify that?

 

[Mr Latte]

Mr Latte,

I agree that any new format has to be released with a view to the long term. However I think the timing was wrong, however I think both companies Sony and Toshiba & co were in a bit of a tricky situation.

Corporate Greed i suppose, neither wanted to let up and the movie studios were the meat in the sandwich. Studio commitment was probably more to do with past history with certain studios or internal connections with at the time no aparent winning format/solution.

At the start i assumed HD-DVD would be the easy winner as it was a recognised format only now hi def and everything was going hi defination. Also Sony / Phillips for example are two companies that over the years have released "RD" technology to a market that not necessarily needed it or indeed wanted it. Thiers many examples from those two.

As HDTV was becoming widespread and be aware USA has had it many years before the UK or Europe i think the timing wasnt really that far out. They knew it would be a long trip. Also combined with lack of material, the first MPEG 2 titles not being that great in may cases and Blu Ray compatibility with an unfinished spec wernt ideal situations. You then had the high costs with even PS3 being victim to Blu Laser technology prices meaning expensive at retail.

Personally for me when i discovered that FOX and Disney were BD exclusives with the idea that consoles are vey much a family thing in many homes it made more sense. They were aiming more for the family market kids-teens rather than the actual avid movie collector. They knew techies and gamers would also buy into it anyways and i think thats been the angle of thier advantages. As more content has become available and prices have dropped then surely it will only continue. Its a smart move because you get movie lovers buying a console that plays movies great and is better value also up untill recently perhaps the cheapest solution and in doing this they increase the chance of additional games sales. Even non gamers would be tempted to buy the odd game if they bought a PS3 primarily because it was the cheapest Blu Ray player on the market. At the same time you get gamers having a free blu ray player and chances are most teens or young men that own a PS3 will also have a HDTV and they im sure will be curious to buy a few BD movies instead of the usual DVD, win win scanario.


As an AV fan i have to ask myself why would i buy a high end standalone player because at the moment i dont think im really going to benifit from it over the PS3 as a player. The thing is they really have made the PS3 a great Blu Ray and entertainment device. Now i think its one of the best value for money entertainment devices on the market and i dont mean that in any fanboy way or fashion but based on what it offers.

 

[Shep_Cobain]

can you justify that?

i think it looks better.... and is better value for money .... my personal opinion. i dont need to justify babes.

 

[wwwebber]

As an AV fan i have to ask myself why would i buy a high end standalone player because at the moment i dont think im really going to benifit from it over the PS3 as a player. The thing is they really have made the PS3 a great Blu Ray and entertainment device. Now i think its one of the best value for money entertainment devices on the market and i dont mean that in any fanboy way or fashion but based on what it offers.

Me too - I initially bought a PS3 just for it's blu-ray & AV capabilities - I play games as a bonus and find it much more social than PC game playing.

 

[Kainz]

can you justify that?

A standardised interactive feature set for starters. None of this Java lark but something that actually works and was proven on quite a few of Warner Bros HD-DVD's last year.

 

[james.miller]

i think it looks better.... and is better value for money .... my personal opinion. i dont need to justify babes.

you are wrong. they both use the same codecs, except bluray allows higher bitrates. and cheaper...i bought the 300 on bluray 3 weeks before release over here, for £17.99. cheaper than the hd-dvd was at release.


i love people who say hd-dvd is 'better'. ask them why and they dont have a single valid reason.

As an AV fan i have to ask myself why would i buy a high end standalone player because at the moment i dont think im really going to benifit from it over the PS3 as a player. The thing is they really have made the PS3 a great Blu Ray and entertainment device. Now i think its one of the best value for money entertainment devices on the market and i dont mean that in any fanboy way or fashion but based on what it offers.

yep, ive said this myself before. the ps3 is possibly the single most important piece of av equipment for a very, very long time. for everythign they can do, even at the launch price, they were astoundingly cheap. as long as you could see past its gaming abilities. the constant updates mean its just getting better and better.

 

[Johnnytoxic]

A standardised interactive feature set for starters. None of this Java lark but something that actually works and was proven on quite a few of Warner Bros HD-DVD's last year.

This interactive stuff is way over rated. Also BD-LIVE.

Who in there right mind is gonna ring up the friend and say "HEYY put in your new James Bond DVD so we can play this pants little quirky game over the internet"

This is the reason we have consoles.

Just give us MAXIMUM bitrate and Uncompressed audio with a behind the scenes feature and an outtakes features. This is all I want and I could guess 99% of other people ONLY want from there movies.

 

[james.miller]

This interactive stuff is way over rated. Also BD-LIVE.

Who in there right mind is gonna ring up the friend and say "HEYY put in your new James Bond DVD so we can play this pants little quirky game over the internet"

This is the reason we have consoles.

Just give us MAXIMUM bitrate and Uncompressed audio with a behind the scenes feature and an outtakes features. This is all I want and I could guess 99% of other people ONLY want from there movies.

amen!

 

[Kainz]

This interactive stuff is way over rated. Also BD-LIVE.

Shows just how customers vary then doesn't it? I for one love extra content on my films and that's what has driven me to buying stuff like the Heroes and BSG boxsets. Overrated stuff for one person isn't for the other.

 

[james.miller]

Shows just how customers vary then doesn't it? I for one love extra content on my films and that's what has driven me to buying stuff like the Heroes and BSG boxsets. Overrated stuff for one person isn't for the other.

he never said he didnt want the extras, hd-dvd and blurays menu systems have never not allowed that. its the useless things they do allow that we're really not interested in. picture in picture - great thats useful if you want to erm...

net connections, mini games over the net, didnt one of the studios allow you to purchase stuff using the players net connection on one of their hd-dvd's? useful that....

 

[JUMPURS]

Shows just how customers vary then doesn't it? I for one love extra content on my films and that's what has driven me to buying stuff like the Heroes and BSG boxsets. Overrated stuff for one person isn't for the other.

Out of curiosity Kainz, what does the Heroes HD-DVD box set offer over the DVD box set?

I have made the arguement that a reason DVD took over from VHS was because of menus and extra features, but i don't think extra extra features will be a huge seller. So i was just wondering what HD-DVD would have over DVD.

 

[suarve]

Because it is a big war - there's a lot at stake for both sides. Oh - and why am I not surprised that you prefer HD DVD

he has a PS3 and 360 I believe.

Stop the baiting, its sooooo boring.

 

[james.miller]

Out of curiosity Kainz, what does the Heroes HD-DVD box set offer over the DVD box set?

I have made the arguement that a reason DVD took over from VHS was because of menus and extra features, but i don't think extra extra features will be a huge seller. So i was just wondering what HD-DVD would have over DVD.

look on the big rainforest site for the heroes hd-dvd and it lists all the hd-dvd features

 

[JUMPURS]

look on the big rainforest site for the heroes hd-dvd and it lists all the hd-dvd features

I can't get on there just now, but was wondering from a users perspective. Kainz (who i have a lot of time for, even if he is a fanboy ) said it swayed his decision, i am just wondering why?

 

[crunchman]

Heres a write up by High def digest for you Jumpurs.

Universal has really loaded this one with a gaggle of exclusive content -- enough that it is probably the most packed high-def disc release I've yet seen, and it's certainly the most extensive U-control-enhanced title Universal has yet released.

I usually find the highlight of any HD DVD disc with exclusive content to be the picture-in-picture commentaries, and 'Heroes: Season 1' certainly doesn't disappoint in this category, offering up a series of tracks on eight different episodes -- "Godsend," "The Fix," "Distractions" (disc four); ".07%", "Five Years Game," "The Hard Part," "Landslide" (disc six); and "How to Stop an Exploding Man" (disc seven). Note that each track includes an almost completely different set of participants, from cast and crew, to creator Tim Kring (on "Exploding Head" only).

In the interest of time, I sampled about 15 minutes of each track. Each features its participants recorded as one big group with only a couple of cameras. There is no behind-the-scenes footage edited in like most PIP tracks, so these essentially function as audio commentaries, except you can now see the participants. That's something of a disappointment, as what's generally such a step up about PIP tracks is that they integrated disparate footage in a way that audio commentaries can't. Anyway, at least the detail is there, with each track almost non-stop with comments; and, depending on the groupings of the track, a general focus (the effects crew on one, the actors and writers on another, etc.)

Next up are a trio of interactive features all accessible via U-Control, and presented consistently on each episode across all seven discs.

Coolest is the Artwork Presentation. Throughout the season, the character of Isaac creates a series of paintings, some of which integrate into the plot (and much to fans' delight, the show's expanding mythology). Cleverly utilizing high-def technology in a way standard DVD could only dream of, here you can zoom in on any of the paintings for a closer look -- a very neat way of using interactivity to offer increased insight into a feature's narrative.

The disc's "Character Connections" feature is also unique. As the season progresses through each episode, you can "chart" the characters as they inter-connect. The map grows as the series soldiers on, and by the end it looks like a giant plate of spaghetti. Pretty nifty.

Finally, Helix Revealed is the one function I found completely superfluous. The Helix symbol proves integral to the growing complexity of the stories, and this finder will pinpoint its location for you as it pops up in each episode. I kept this function on throughout, hoping that after a while some cool thing would happen or a secret bonus feature would unlock -- so far, no luck. (But if I wake up tomorrow with a Helix symbol magically tattooed on my ass, I'm blaming you, Microsoft!)

Before we more on to the web-enabled features on the disc, note that there is also a "Mind Reader" interactive game rather tossed off on disc five. Here, you pick a number between 1 to 99, mark it to a specific hero on a grid, and then wait as the Matt Parkman character psychically guesses your choice. Quite honestly, I was bored with this one after about five minutes.

Capping off an already-impressive package are a couple of Internet-connect nuggets. Note that before you can utilize these features, you'll need to make sure that your HD DVD player's Ethernet connection is active, and you'll also need to register online (in one of two ways, either using your computer through Universal's web-based form, or directly via your player's remote).

Once that's done, the highlight is the Genetics Abilities Test. Answer a series of questions to "discover" if you too have advanced abilities. You can then save your profile and share it with other would-be heroes online.

There is also a second Download Center portal, though as of this writing, not much is up -- just a trailer for 'Heroes: Season One' and the upcoming Universal theatrical films 'Talk to Her' and 'White Noise 2' (which, presumably, will be making their way to HD DVD someday). However, promised future content include 'Heroes' polling allowing you to share your opinions with other fans online, an interface to organize your HD DVD player's online storage contents, and other material to be announced. We'll be looking forward to it...

Lastly, I must commend Universal for really getting their act together with this U-Control thing. Not only could other HD DVD-supporting studios take a few tips from Universal, but so could the Blu-ray camp -- I've yet to see a disc this user-friendly. Some of the niceties include a video tutorial on how to use the U-Control features, as well as the ability to adjust the volume of the PIP features and the main feature, so balance is never a problem. Universal has also indexed all of the U-Control features in the menu for each episode, so you can, for example, find the Helix symbols or other content right away without having to just sit there and wait. Finally, Universal provides its now-standard MyScenes feature, allowing you to mark your favorite segments (complete with custom starting and ending points) for instant access even after you eject the disc from the player. Very nicely done.

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/849/heroess1.html

i love people who say hd-dvd is 'better'. ask them why and they dont have a single valid reason.

Only thing I can think of is that it's region free. Other than that I love Blu-ray.

Except when Fox continues to release MPEG 2 discs:
http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=66681

How retarded. :/