Cleared of murder charge

Dreadi · 1 Feb 2008 at 14:03

even though its on film :confused:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=511092

Think the age should say 16, not 6...

I wouldnt like to call this case as the girl clearly has issues but attempted murder is attempted murder really

Darkwave · 1 Feb 2008 at 14:11

I hate to play Devil's advocate, since she's obviously ****** in the head, but: -

Giving evidence the girl claimed she had been troubled by a voice inside her head since she was 12 or 13 and she had sought counselling... / ...The girl said she had never intended to kill her parents, but wanted them to see something was wrong.

Assuming she's not lying, which she could be, it sounds to me like she's tried to get help but was ignored. Unfortunately it is a problem that kids with mental issues are often completely ignored by both the state and their parents.

UKDTweak · 1 Feb 2008 at 14:11

Hold on, was she 6 or 15??

After the jury delieverd its verdict Judge Gareth Hawkesworth told the 6-year-old he will do everything in his power to help her.

t was following an argument with her father last February that the girl, then 15, came into the living room from her bedroom at the family's home.

rpstewart · 1 Feb 2008 at 14:12

Dreadi said:
attempted murder is attempted murder really

Yes and as such has distinct attributes which must be proven by the prosecution if someone is to be convicted. Just because someone almost died doesn't make it attempted murder.

The girl was convicted of other charges - common assault, unlawful wounding etc. These have far less strict definitions and hence are "easier" to prove albeit with lower sentences.

The CPS has to take a balanced view on getting a conviction at all versus the length of sentence.

Dj_Jestar · 1 Feb 2008 at 14:12

Dolph · 1 Feb 2008 at 14:14

The fact that the girl has issues does mean that what appears to have been attempted murder may not have been.

If she'd had succeeded in what she was trying to do, reading through the report it may well have gone down as manslaughter due to diminished responsibility rather than murder...

Dreadi · 1 Feb 2008 at 14:19

rpstewart said:
Yes and as such has distinct attributes which must be proven by the prosecution if someone is to be convicted.

Well she stated on the video that she wanted to kill them and wanted credit for their murder although i'm not sure i'd charge her with it myself if it was me, its a tough call

rpstewart · 1 Feb 2008 at 14:22

Dreadi said:
Well she stated on the video that she wanted to kill them and wanted credit for their murder although i'm not sure i'd charge her with it myself if it was me, its a tough call

You (as the CPS or the Procurator Fiscal) can charge someone with anything, the trick is having enough evidence to prove it to the extent that the law requires. The burden of proof is such that in many case, most far simpler than this, it's necessary to reduce the charge to secure a conviction.

WillyNelson · 1 Feb 2008 at 15:15

The girl, described as highly intelligent and theatrical

Typical drama student type then. Attention seeking tbh.

Darkwave · 1 Feb 2008 at 15:16

WillyNelson said:
Typical drama student type then. Attention seeking tbh.

Yes because someone sane would risk going to prison for murder just for a bit of attention. :rolleyes:

WillyNelson · 1 Feb 2008 at 15:30

Didn't say she wasn't a nut-job, just that (I would imagine) she had a tendancy for attention seeking and exhibitionism.

Darkwave · 1 Feb 2008 at 15:31

WillyNelson said:
Didn't say she wasn't a nut-job, just that (I would imagine) she had a tendancy for attention seeking and exhibitionism.

Which is probably more to do with the fact that she's mental than anything.

WillyNelson · 1 Feb 2008 at 15:48

Well from the (apallingly proof-read) report it sounded to me like she knew exactly what she was doing. Maybe she didn't understand that outside of her little bubble you just can't behave like that but I'd say it was more of a behavioral problem than a true mental illness.

The argument was about her eating all of her food out of a child's plastic bowl ffs. It should've been plain to see if this was beacuse she was a fruit cake but I rekon it's more likely it was just something she'd decided to do. A way she'd decided to behave.

Maybe it is a mental illness. If she can't distinguish reality from the fantasy theatrical world she inhabited, where it's ok to eat out of a child's bowl when you're 16, then she may have a problem.

But then again, lots of people go through odd phases of behaviour in their mid to late teens. Like only wearing green, or thinking that dressing in an 'individual' way really does make you an individual. And most of them grow out of it before too long & join in the proper, grown-up world with the rest of us.

Tefal · 1 Feb 2008 at 15:51

I eat out of the tin 'cause I'm a real man

Darkwave · 1 Feb 2008 at 15:52

WillyNelson said:
Well from the (apallingly proof-read) report it sounded to me like she knew exactly what she was doing.

So, by your definition, you're only mental if you aren't lucid? Is that correct?

WillyNelson said:
Maybe she didn't understand that outside of her little bubble you just can't behave like that but I'd say it was more of a behavioral problem than a true mental illness.

I think trying to murder your parents on film takes it a little beyond "behavioural problem".

WillyNelson said:
Maybe it is a mental illness. If she can't distinguish reality from the fantasy theatrical world she inhabited, where it's ok to eat out of a child's bowl when you're 16, then she may have a problem.

It sounds to me like she really doesn't have her head screwed on, but that's up to the psychiatrists to decide.

But all this assumption of yours; "teens go through phases" and "she's seeking attention" would make for the worst prosecution in the entire history of the judicial legal system. I'm serious, I think you're missing a lot of the picture.

Muffin` · 1 Feb 2008 at 15:53

WillyNelson said:
Well from the (apallingly proof-read) report it sounded to me like she knew exactly what she was doing. Maybe she didn't understand that outside of her little bubble you just can't behave like that but I'd say it was more of a behavioral problem than a true mental illness.

The argument was about her eating all of her food out of a child's plastic bowl ffs. It should've been plain to see if this was beacuse she was a fruit cake but I rekon it's more likely it was just something she'd decided to do. A way she'd decided to behave.

Maybe it is a mental illness. If she can't distinguish reality from the fantasy theatrical world she inhabited, where it's ok to eat out of a child's bowl when you're 16, then she may have a problem.

But then again, lots of people go through odd phases of behaviour in their mid to late teens. Like only wearing green, or thinking that dressing in an 'individual' way really does make you an individual. And most of them grow out of it before too long & join in the proper, grown-up world with the rest of us.

^Agree to that entirely.

Muffin` · 1 Feb 2008 at 15:55

Ulfhedjinn said:
All this assumption of yours; "teens go through phases" and "she's seeking attention" would make for the worst prosecution in the entire history of the judicial legal system. I'm serious, I think you're missing a lot of the picture somehow.

I think we are, we never get to know exactly what happened, and the Mail could have missed out large chunks.

Darkwave · 1 Feb 2008 at 15:57

Muffin` said:
I think we are, we never get to know exactly what happened, and the Mail could have missed out large chunks.

Wouldn't surprise me, it is the Daily Mail after all.

WillyNelson · 1 Feb 2008 at 16:12

Ulfhedjinn said:
So, by your definition, you're only mental if you aren't lucid? Is that correct?

I didn't say that and didn't mean to imply it. I meant that she was fully aware of her actions and it was a problem with how she chose to behave that made her act in that manner.

Did she really want her parents dead? No. Did she think about the process of killing them in order to make her feel better about whatever angst she was having, probably fuelled by the argument? Yes. Did her 'theatrical' nature make her actually act out that process, seeing it as more of an act than actions? Yes.

Ulfhedjinn said:
All this assumption of yours; "teens go through phases" and "she's seeking attention" would make for the worst prosecution in the entire history of the judicial legal system. I'm serious, I think you're missing a lot of the picture somehow.

I didn't say she shouldn't have been let off. In fact I suprised that it even went to court.

Darkwave · 1 Feb 2008 at 16:21

WillyNelson said:
I didn't say that and didn't mean to imply it. I meant that she was fully aware of her actions and it was a problem with how she chose to behave that made her act in that manner.

You did seperate it between "mental issue" and "behavioural issue" though, which is what threw me off if that's not what you meant. To me a "behavioural issue" is what you have when toe-rag kids are vandalising things and swearing at teachers.

WillyNelson said:
Did she really want her parents dead? No. Did she think about the process of killing them in order to make her feel better about whatever angst she was having, probably fuelled by the argument? Yes. Did her 'theatrical' nature make her actually act out that process, seeing it as more of an act than actions? Yes.

On this I mostly agree. I just don't think it's entirely down to her theatrical personality, but I'm not her shrink.

WillyNelson said:
I didn't say she shouldn't have been let off. In fact I suprised that it even went to court.

I didn't really think you were making comment about the decision in general, I just took issue with the way you appeared (from my point of view) to magic away the possibility that she's probably got some very serious mental illness as "attention-seeking" and whatnot.

If that's not what you were doing then you have my apologies, but if it is then I know from experience it's that kind of attitude towards mental health, ignoring people and not taking them seriously, that contributes to them actually doing something crazy.