Atheist Sees Image of Big Bang in Piece of Toast

yantorsen said:
instinct is quite simple, as it is just a case of doing what's best for yourself/pack.

but morals are a lot more complex, I don't think wolves would have a stance on abortion for example, and most packs of wolves would happily murder another for there own cause.
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But most wolves or other pack animals would not murder one of their own pack without a reason.

humans follow this to an extent, but with much more intricate relations ships as in your country is pack but so is your race to a certain extent a long with those you work with and your family. For religious people their religion becomes their pack.

But also you just seamed to ignore the treat others as you wish to be treated?

And i guess to a large extent they get their morals from the same place as religious people, their parents

Also a good quote "The Redeemed never allow the redeemer, to redeem all".
 
Royal Fleet said:
You missed my point. Anyone can think what they like, it is when those beliefs turn into actions which are an intolerance of another that is the fault.

Someone can believe that Noel Edmunds is God for all I care, but if they then say I have to watch Deal or No Deal or I will go to hell, then that line is crossed.
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so what's the point in believing anything is you can't follow it through?

you'd happily turn a blind eye to the "Laws of God" which some people would believe in, yet if someone goes against your beliefs of what religion should be like you don't like it.
 
Royal Fleet said:
You missed my point. Anyone can think what they like, it is when those beliefs turn into actions which are an intolerance of another that is the fault.

Someone can believe that Noel Edmunds is God for all I care, but if they then say I have to watch Deal or No Deal or I will go to hell, then that line is crossed.
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They can say whatever the hell they like. If they start advocating the murder of people who think Deal or No Deal is a stupid program with no real point to it, then they've crossed the line.
 
Monkey Puzzle said:
Religion. That is the only source of morals. Without religion you turn out like Pol Pot or Stalin.
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Utter rubbish. by that logic, everyone in the world who doesn't believe in religion has no morals or good judgement. Not true. I and most of my friends are atheists, yet not one of us is guilty of committing any mortal moral crime against other humans.

Also, even if what you said it true, you don't make a good case for yourself. Because your basically saying "I am only morally just because of fear of reprisal from God." So only your fear of punishment from your religious belief keeps you in check? Pathetic.
 
Tefal said:
But most wolves or other pack animals would not murder one of their own pack without a reason.

humans follow this to an extent, but with much more intricate relations ships as in your country is pack but so is your race to a certain extent a long with those you work with and your family. For religious people their religion becomes their pack.

But also you just seamed to ignore the treat others as you wish to be treated?

And i guess to a large extent they get their morals from the same place as religious people, their parents

Also a good quote "The Redeemed never allow the redeemer, to redeem all".
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you missed my point, your talking about instinct and that's obviously natural, but morals? you haven't stated any moral wolf beleifs.
 
Conscript said:
Utter rubbish. by that logic, everyone in the world who doesn't believe in religion has no morals or good judgement. Not true. I and most of my friends are atheists, yet not one of us is guilty of committing any mortal moral crime against other humans.

Also, even if what you said it true, you don't make a good case for yourself. Because your basically saying "I am only morally just because of fear of reprisal from God." So only your fear of punishment from your religious belief keeps you in check? Pathetic.
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I think your sarcasm detector is broken.:)
 
yantorsen said:
you missed my point, your talking about instinct and that's obviously natural, but morals? you haven't stated any moral wolf beleifs.
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Who says morals are anything greater than instinct designed not to anger the pack and to preserve your position and benefit the pack?

But for a wolf moral, you could say that the fact dominant males rarely if ever attack the females of the pack means that wolves think its immoral to hit (bite? ) a lady, even though it's just because there is no point in risking your health and a breeding partner for no reason, as it gains you n standing etc.
 
Or, maybe the fact that they were atheists had no bearing on their actions. It's a bit like the "Hitler and Stalin were both atheists and they killed millions!" argument. So what? They both had moustaches too. Are moustaches now an inherent evil?
 
yantorsen said:
so what's the point in believing anything is you can't follow it through?

you'd happily turn a blind eye to the "Laws of God" which some people would believe in, yet if someone goes against your beliefs of what religion should be like you don't like it.
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I am not following you here. I have a set of moral values by which I live my life. They guide my actions and choices in life. They are no one else's, each person should live according to their own values.
 
yantorsen said:
you missed my point, your talking about instinct and that's obviously natural, but morals? you haven't stated any moral wolf beleifs.
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I think empathy and sympathy are to some extent instinct in humans. For many people, their morality is based on these two things.
 
Conscript said:
Or, maybe the fact that they were atheists had no bearing on their actions. It's a bit like the "Hitler and Stalin were both atheists and they killed millions!" argument. So what? They both had moustaches too. Are moustaches now an inherent evil?
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Did Mao have a moustache, i think you may be on to something here >.>
 
Tefal said:
Who says morals are anything greater than instinct designed not to anger the pack and to preserve your position and benefit the pack?

But for a wolf moral, you could say that the fact dominant males rarely if ever attack the females of the pack means that wolves think its immoral to hit (bite? ) a lady, even though it's just because there is no point in risking your health and a breeding partner for no reason, as it gains you n standing etc.
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ok, so what about abortion? incest? I doubt wolves have a concept of incest.
 
Conscript said:
Utter rubbish. by that logic, everyone in the world who doesn't believe in religion has no morals or good judgement. Not true. I and most of my friends are atheists, yet not one of us is guilty of committing any mortal moral crime against other humans.

Also, even if what you said it true, you don't make a good case for yourself. Because your basically saying "I am only morally just because of fear of reprisal from God." So only your fear of punishment from your religious belief keeps you in check? Pathetic.
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no, every/most governments laws are based originally on religious morals, which effect it's citizens.
 
yantorsen said:
ok, so what about abortion? incest? I doubt wolves have a concept of incest.
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For some animals (eg. rabbits) there is nothing wrong with incest as it doesn't cause problems for them, so they're happy to go and do it anyway. Not sure what it's like for wolves, but it does cause genetic defects in humans so our instinct tells us it's not a good idea to bang our siblings.
 
yantorsen said:
wait a second, where do these morals supposedly come from?
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From the bible........d'oh.....I've walked into your trap. Damn! There must be a God, he invented morals then made a man write down some words in a book ;)

The ten commandments are a pretty good base to start an ordered society. Don't kill each other, don't steal, don't go around messing with wives, goats etc. respect your parents.......great! Now as a society we decide through debate and discussion whether or not we (as a society) should allow abortion or homosexuality or any other topic that might come up due to changing ideas within society or through technology advancement. As I said above we've out grown religion, we can explain things for ourselves, we have a system whereby we can openly discuss moral matters and make a reasoned judgment on them.
 
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