Poll: Candid photography involving children

[Helium_Junkie]

Maybe you enjoy being called niave and immature, but I don't - I consider that a pretty personal insult, so kindly don't tell me that it isn't.

Now, whats this about "your gains", there are no gains from it - you can't sell candids without model release forms. It's just a photo.

 

[james.miller]

Maybe you enjoy being called niave and immature, but I don't - I consider that a pretty personal insult, so kindly don't tell me that it isn't.

you are acting a little immature over this. he's just saying what he has seen in your posts and you arent helping that matter.

It's not political correctness it is merely common sense. I have children and really would object to a complete stranger taking their photograph without permission. If someone came up and said can I take a picture Id still say no.

I dont think you can be over cautious when you are dealing with children.

Its not a climate I like living in but its sadly the only choice.

Enough, seriously. Go cry elsewhere.

is the response rhys was refering to. can you not see the issue here?

this whole 'what if they cant see me, they cant do anything about it" attitude IS immature, people with these views should have a little more respect for these families and their children.

Now, whats this about "your gains", there are no gains from it - you can't sell candids without model release forms. It's just a photo.[/QUOTE]

publicity is gain, right? that doesnt mean a direct financial gain from the pictures. it all would have been a lot nicer of people didnt react to todd flanders in the way that they did when was only pointing out the possible implications. You are one of those people. how you react to this post will really show whether you are being immature or not. i personally think its a mountain out of a molehill affair.

for the record, i thought the pictures were great. i dont have a problem with them, assuming you had permission. these people are children, rules should apply.

 

[Helium_Junkie]

Uhhuh, you're entitled to your opinion about me, and I wont try to change it (doubt I could anyway) , it doesn't matter - and it doesnt change the fact that it's just not necessary to have brought such comments to this thread, comments about my maturity have no bearing on whether people should take pictures of children in public do they?

We're just trying to debate the matter - I put my opinion forward and was met by questions about my age and comments about my social skills - forgive me for being annoyed. And yes, it is a mountain out of a molehill - but thats what PC is, people worrying that something could possibly happen being escalated into panic that that something is happening, all the time, and that we must take undue measures to prevent it by stopping all related activity - no matter how innocent that activity may be.
In this case, members took umbrage to anothers innocent photographic activity and suggested that such activity decist and not be repeated - an idea which isn't shared - thus a discussion ensued. Unfortunately some parties (myself, ryhs, todd, and now you) have bought too much personal agenda to the debate which should have been seperated from the previous umbrage and discussion.
So why don't we all drop it, not insult anyone any more, and continue the debate reasonably and maturely.

Therefore, kindly could everyone please leave me and my photos out of this debate - it isn't about me, it shouldnt ever have been.

And now back to the debate

 

[wez130]

From Februarys Digital camera magazine, which contained quite a thorough guide to photographers and the law states the following...

Kids in a park
Taking pictures of children inside a public place isn't a crime. For non-commercial use it's fine, as long as the pictures are decent and there are no bylaws that prevent photography. If there are bylaws you will need to seek permission from the authorities, you'll also need permission if you are shooting commercially.

Kids from a public highway
Decent photographs of children from a public place are fine for non-commercial use. Don't shoot covertly with a long lens and be aware of worried parents and over-zealous officials. I'f you'd like to use the images commercially you'll need to get a model release form signed by any parents of the children pictured.

In reality though, taking pictures of children, however innocent it is, is still a grey area due to the obvious, i personally steer well clear of it as i can imagine a lot of parents taking it the wrong way. I suppose, the way i look at it, if it were my son, as long as the photographer was confident and open about what he was doing and not hiding in a bush or something lol.

 

[Bubo]

I feel that people should not assume that everyone else IS a pervert, this is optimism and hope that our country isnt as decrepid and disgusting as other pessimistic people like to think. I'd willingly place a wager that in that park on that day, there was not a single paedophile, rapist or murderer. From you're opinions I wonder if you would bet against me?

I'd also place a good bet on there being no perverts in that park that day as well. But the thing is once you've posted those pictures the pervert doesn't have to be in the park, he can simply browse online forums and pick and choose those images which he finds most gratifying. I say he, could equally be a she. This is the problem I have with this issue. If permission has been sought and granted then there is no problem. Just like the portraits section on Talk Photography, people are always posting pictures of their own kids, which although are still subject to the trawling pervert, since its their own parents posting there is no problem. It is a crying shame this is how the world is today, it is fair enough for you to assume for yourself that not everyone is a pervert and post pictures, but the reailtiy is that there are such vermin about, and therefore permission should be given in the very least, otherwise the kids and their parents will have no choice if some random paedophile decides to download their picture. It may be legal but I don't think it is right in this day and age.

 

[Helium_Junkie]

But we aren't talking about any kind of pornographic imagery, we're talking about decent pictures of fully clothed children and adults (not just children). It would be a terrible shame if every decent photo of a fully clothed child were removed from the internet just in case somebody found them sexually arousing.

 

[todd flanders]

I never said that he did, I said he has in this thread - which is the debate I am referring to:
"he's just a tad niave and immature"

Can we stop hurling abuse at me and discuss the issue instead? I'm honestly trying to keep this on topic and not rise to the bait that a few members are throwing at me, I haven't returned any of the numerous insults, nor been rude in this thread to anyone - so can that please be the end of it.

Me describing you as immature and niave isn't a personal insult, it's what I've concluded after reading your opinion on the matter.

Besides, don't take that forum rules line because the moderator called me an idiot (eejit) and refused to take it back after several emails to him. If it's ok for them to break thier own rules then it's ok for everyone!

 

[Rhys]

But we aren't talking about any kind of pornographic imagery, we're talking about decent pictures of fully clothed children and adults (not just children). It would be a terrible shame if every decent photo of a fully clothed child were removed from the internet just in case somebody found them sexually arousing.

Once you have children of your own you will understand the mentality of a parent. I think until you can appreciate both sides of the argument then you should not participate.

You can not talk about a more sensitive issue than some ones children.

 

[Rhys]

I think its fair to say that based on this thread, and the other, that most parents would want a photographer to assume that their child should not be a subject of a photo unless given express permission to the contrary?

I would agree that this is my stance on the OP question.

 

[Helium_Junkie]

Me describing you as immature and niave isn't a personal insult, it's what I've concluded after reading your opinion on the matter.

Besides, don't take that forum rules line because the moderator called me an idiot (eejit) and refused to take it back after several emails to him. If it's ok for them to break thier own rules then it's ok for everyone!

Oh for petes sake! Come on, please just let it lie! I understood what you thought of me the first time you said it so you can stop taking this off topic, if you really feel you have to get it out then you can e-mail me with insults and comments on my character, or make another thread perhaps if it's that important to you, but kindly keep this thread to the topic Scuzi posted.

 

[Helium_Junkie]

Once you have children of your own you will understand the mentality of a parent. I think until you can appreciate both sides of the argument then you should not participate.

You can not talk about a more sensitive issue than some ones children.

I won't stay out of the debate for not having children, that's unfair discrimination. Also, I think the points and questions I have made on the topic have been worthy of discussion.

I agree that it is a sensitive subject, and I can understand parental fear of paedophiles, but I would hope that it isn't as gripping a fear as you desribe, eg, every parent thinks that any photographer is a paedophile and should stay a mile away. I would urge parents to have some faith and confidence that there are good people in the world too, and they vastly outnumber the bad.

 

[todd flanders]

Oh for petes sake! Come on, please just let it lie! I understood what you thought of me the first time you said it so you can stop taking this off topic, if you really feel you have to get it out then you can e-mail me with insults and comments on my character, or make another thread perhaps if it's that important to you, but kindly keep this thread to the topic Scuzi posted.

I was merely defending myself against your earlier rant and accusation that I only post things to inflame situations.

If anything comes of these threads I hope you'll think twice before taking candid shots of kids again.

 

[Helium_Junkie]

No I wont, as I have already explained... I don't feel that there is anything wrong with it. The only end result for me is that when I do post them I plan to completely ignore those who try to turn my thread into a debate

I've lost interest in arguing with you, you're not forwarding the debate or even showing any interest other than in me personally. Perhaps a passing don could remove all of the personal rubbish that has cluttered this thread? It doesn't help the debate in the slightest to have todd rhys and me arguing about things that quite frankly just arent worth arguing about. I don't mind my posts being removed.

 

[Rhys]

...things that quite frankly just arent worth arguing about.

HJ, I was annoyed at your lack of exceptance their are two sides to every argument. With your logic, we should close most threads as they are discussing issues without a yes or no answer. I was always giving my opinions on the issue and also trying to understand your ignorance.

 

[Helium_Junkie]

Rhys, I don't lack acceptance that there are two sides, I've debated the issue in this very thread with people who have posted their opinions, including you - I replied to your point with a counter and question which you've ignored in deference to saying that I'm ignoring your opinion, which I havent at all. But I'm not going to change my opinion just because people don't agree, how fickle would that be!

So regarding:
"you seem to think just because you feel that you are not a pervert that everyone should also understand that when you take pictures of their children "

No, you misunderstand - I feel that people should not assume that everyone else IS a pervert, this is optimism and hope that our country isnt as decrepid and disgusting as other pessimistic people like to think. I'd willingly place a wager that in that park on that day, there was not a single paedophile, rapist or murderer. From you're opinions I wonder if you would bet against me?

I'm not being ignorant or difficult in this matter - I'm trying to discuss and to make clear my own feelings. So, shall we continue down that road and stop arguing? It's not getting anywhere...

 

[Rhys]

I'm not being ignorant or difficult in this matter - I'm trying to discuss and to make clear my own feelings. So, shall we continue down that road and stop arguing? It's not getting anywhere...

Agreed. (Dont take photos of my kids though )

 

[platypus]

Depends what you mean by candid I suppose. I have a few of my niece in which she looks gorgeous. I'll show this picture to anyone and everyone because she's such a beautiful girl. I'm proud of my niece, why shouldn't I be?

 

[Bubo]

But we aren't talking about any kind of pornographic imagery, we're talking about decent pictures of fully clothed children and adults (not just children). It would be a terrible shame if every decent photo of a fully clothed child were removed from the internet just in case somebody found them sexually arousing.

Of course your images are perfectly innocent, but you must have heard the reports that paedophiles are often a dab hand with photoshop and can make a picture into whatever they want. Now you're probably thinking to yourself "Yeah, but that applies to ANY picture on the internet!", to which I reply, "Of course it does, and most parents will know this, and therefore would default into not wanting pictures of their kids posted without their permission just in case". You must accept this possibilty surely.

 

[Helium_Junkie]

Of course I accept that possibility, but that doesnt mean I think it's right. Surely you can accept that possibility?
We cant punish ourselves and limit our lives "just in case".

Agreed. (Dont take photos of my kids though )

hehe, ok. I'm sorry for going off the deep end, but cencorship, over-protectiveness and PC are things I feel very strongly about.

 

[james.miller]

i dont believe that has anything to do with political correctness. its not about minimizing offense but abiding to the parents wishes, those are two different subjects.