The thing with IE 5.5/6.0 is that.. at the time it actually wasn't a half bad browser. That was circa 2000 and 2001. An era where Microsoft's main competitor was still Netscape. IE 5.5/6.0 were definately much better than Netscape in terms of standards compliance. Then all of a sudden a little browser called Firebird (renamed to Firefox later) came along and then everybody expected Microsoft to start competing with that. Which they did eventually... but perhaps not quick enough.
Microsoft must pay $1.4bn to EU
- Thread starter Frapple
- Start date
You do realise, that the "state" is just another group of people ?
You could say that the nanny state is a word for the "elite" at the controlling point of society decide to override the free will of the people not in control, but then that has been happening for hundreds of years. You could call the entire Christian religion a "nanny" state if it actually had any real legal power, which thankfully it no longer has.
The purpose of the "state" is to not only supervise, but to moderate the community as a whole. 99% of people (apart from maybe sociologists / economists) monitor the actions of people as a whole, we mostly think in selfish terms / localised terms, where locality is based on our personal bias (e.g. personal needs, the needs of loved ones, your company etc).
However, without the necessary experience / knowledge or wellbeing of society as a whole, there is no way in hell I would trust the "people" to work things out for themselves. It is my opinion (and extremely cynical as it is) that people are lazy and selfish, and that competition (rightly, in my opinion) drives all of us to do what is best in our own interests. However, anything taken to extreme needs moderation, and this is the purpose of the "nanny state". Even the term "nanny state" is an idea taken to extreme...
Their time will come. The EU is just waiting for them to get to such a profitable level where it is worthwhile fining them for it. Not only just for that though - but their whole concept of locking the iPhone down to just specific networks. If that isn't limiting consumer choice... then...
It's a bit like how patents work... you let someone use it for a decade and then you file a lawsuit against them - because potentially you have years worth of royalties to be back paid
The EU are crafty buggers.
Ah I see, that makes sense. I personally think the way Itunes restricts you in other ways is also ridiculous, but then again we have the ability to 'show hidden folders'
So you'd be quite happy in this case.
If you had to get a phone line connected and they didn't present you with any choice only BT (after all it used to be like that it worked so why change?) if you don't like BT you can always change but your initial connection will be with BT. Is that ok?
No of course it isn't you can choose which company your phone is with you can even choose which phone you buy.
Another example your new car comes in Black no other colour if you want to change it you can. But why change Black is a fine colour and it protects the paintwork.
That sounds completely stupid, in reality your car comes without paint and you choose the colour. Yet you would deny letting people have the choice as to which software comes with their OS?
What a strange world we live in.
BTW those that think WMP and IE7 come for free are living in lala land it's included in the price of the OS.
Quoted for truthfulness
Their time will come. The EU is just waiting for them to get to such a profitable level where it is worthwhile fining them for it. Not only just for that though - but their whole concept of locking the iPhone down to just specific networks. If that isn't limiting consumer choice... then...
It will be interesting here in Belgium where we have anti-trust laws to stop this kind of bundling phones with networks. So far it has only disavantages for users. We have to pay full price for phones and our networks charge the highest call charges in western europe.
We don't expect the iphone to be launched here anytime soon, unless they find a loophole in the law.
I just want to say despite my wanting choice in my OS applications I think the fine is way over the top and I'm not 100% convinced they should be fined either. I am however, 100% behind the choice of software that is installed.
Does anyone know how to stop IE7 from allowing tribalfusion popups, which firefox can easily block with adblock + noscript addons. Exists there such addons for IE7?
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The version of windows with WPM and IE removed cost the same as the version os windows with them included. Now this is in all likelyhood just MS trying to make more money, as people would buy the cheaper version and install their own programs.
But either way, NS is going to keep bundling them, and not reduce the price. I use WMP11 because I can't be bothered to use anything else, it plays 90% of my files. The ones it has problems with I have MPC to deal with (Mainly anime).
Also a question: If microsoft did sell their OS cheaper, and asked you to buy WMP and IE seperately, nobody would buy them. But what about those websites that still require you tu use IE to visit them? IEtab for firefox still needs IE installed (AFAIK) so that wouldn't be a solution. The sites creaters would be forced to code their websites properly, but in the meantime would loose business.
You seem to be implying that the presence of WMP and IE7 prevents installation of anything else. This is simply false and as such the rest of your argument falls down, as does the paint analogy.
Ok question, if all PCs bought with windows had an ISP hookup deal already set up, would you be annoyed?
Little difference...
The business model these corporations play, is that people are lazy and go with whatever they have already installed, the prevailing attitude is that - if it works, why change it?
Considering that most people are terminally afraid of PCs / learning anything new, pre-installed software is more like a "mental monopoly", once you learn how Office works, how/why would you turn to another office-like product with different menus etc? You've already invested in learning one piece of software...
Therefore, as soon as you "get in earlier" with the operating system, you have monopolised the market - even if something better comes along, it won't be considered "of its own benefit" it will only be considered by "additional benefit" with regards to its "additional costs" whereas in windows it is *free*. That is the true monopoly. Windows Media Player, in fact all windows products, are in part supported by the other microsoft products that have gone before and fund the future products of microsoft products.
EDIT : If you don't find accord with my argument, then try to justify for the sake of argument why OpenOffice shouldn't be pre-installed with all new Windows machines... and you aren't allowed to use "because it damages Microsoft's business model" as an excuse.
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Don't try and tell me software (consumer grade) is difficult to install these days - at most its a double click, or even just put the cd in.
"Research" is hardly the hardest thing in the world, people are quite willing to learn the 800 different subtle types of performance differences in cars, but aren't willing to look at maybe 2-3 different pieces of audio software for something that they will be using potentially as much. Same for office software etc. We might spend 2-3 hours a day driving a car each day, but we spend up to 8 hours a day using software... but somehow its less important?
EDIT : Perhaps if people stopped seeing software as "geeky" and as something that was potentially life changing, they'd see that a little bit of interest might actually pay?
I don't see why it shouldn't. If a PC vendor such as Dell wanted to pre-install OpenOffice by default on machines they sell then they should go ahead and do it.
Is it possible for Microsoft to give anything away for free? I suppose people are right in saying that WMP isn't free, even though it doesn't cost anything to download it. You can argue that it's not free because you need Windows to use it. But that means that it's not actually possible for Microsoft to give away free software unless it works on Linux.
The thing is, MS have already been forced to make a version of Windows without WMP. Nobody bought it. Hardly surprising considering it's the same price. Even if they made it cheaper, I bet most people still wouldn't buy it. The only way to stop people having a default media player on Windows is to not allow companies to sell bundles of software.
I've made this point before but I'll say it again. Why stop at media players? There's loads and loads of features in Windows that could have have 3rd party alternatives. File managers, the taskbar, system utilities, text editors, etc. Those could all be separate programs. So why are MS allowed to include them as part of Windows but not a media player and a web browser?
Look at it this way, outside of the forums on here the general PC user doesnt care how the internet works or looks as long as they can check youtube/hotmail and facebook. Now imagine a world where people buying a PC are given a choice of software to be pre installed for them. Then imagine the phonecalls to IT support when people cant work out what they are suppose to do. Implimenting media player and IE gives all those novice pc users the base. Its easy to find other alternatives if they want but giving them the choice in the first place would be a disaster waiting to happen.
but people really don't want to do that, they just want it to work out of the box, and do all the things they see on tv, from the get go.
If you are new to pc's etc, installing stuff may be simple but many people don't want to because they are scared it will break the pc, i mean i used to be asked by my mum if she should install the windows up dates when it poped up and told here.
Just thought of something.
So, microsoft aren't allowed to ship Windows with IE or WMP installed.
You buy windows, and need a web browser. You go online to download one.
Oh, no! You can't go online since you don't have a web broser! Sucks be to you, better go to a friends house and download one onto a CD. >_>
So, microsoft aren't allowed to ship Windows with IE or WMP installed.
You buy windows, and need a web browser. You go online to download one.
Oh, no! You can't go online since you don't have a web broser! Sucks be to you, better go to a friends house and download one onto a CD. >_>